Full Contact Championship #1

[iBlaze²]

...because he'll be your admin on the night who sets it all up for you ...

Just to be clear at the beginning - I'm not a private admin of anyone here. I'm organizing the competition where everybody's equal. So, every good idea is welcomed and will be considered. That's actually the only way that we can use a LVP server.

Of course, but since this is their idea and their cup then...

every good idea is welcomed and will be considered.

Should be considered by them and not you.

Unless I misunderstood and you're telling me you've stolen their idea to create a cup of your own which will run to your rules and how you want it to run. In which case, I guess nobody is allowed to organise their own cup to be hosted on a community server anymore without your "consideration"?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just curious as to which this is.

[Enrico Papi]

I have another one who told me to subscribe him:

Luca Badoer

[Whiplash]

...you're telling me you've stolen their idea to create a cup...

Better word is "taken". I've taken some of their ideas just like I'll do with yours.

...which will run to your rules and how you want it to run...

Better word is "can". I don't want rules that will make me sick while implementing them on Sunday. I don't want to come on the server on Sunday and spend 2 hours chatting with all of the players in order to organize them. If you have problem with that, feel free to organize it with all of your ideas implemented. I'll be happy just to join and play.

In which case, I guess nobody is allowed to organise their own cup to be hosted on a community server anymore without your "consideration"?

I'm just saying that it will be bad to make competition for 5-6 players and then come on Sunday on the server and say to all of non-subscribed players to leave.

[iBlaze²]

Better word is "taken". I've taken some of their ideas just like I'll do with yours.

Cool. So this is now your cup, not theirs. Just wanted to be sure.

I don't want rules that will make me sick while implementing them on Sunday.

Me, me, me, as usual. What's more important - you liking something or the other 99% of players who have signed up liking something? But this is now your cup so you can make whatever rules you like I guess.

I don't want to come on the server on Sunday and spend 2 hours chatting with all of the players in order to organize them.

That's exactly what you will have running it this way anyway. Maximum 20 people in a server, so what happens to numbers 21-30 when they turn up to wank in the Hot Lap server on Sunday to find their division? Right now you'll need a set time (let's say 19:00 CET) where the first 15 wank, another set time (let's say 19:15 CET) where the next 15 wank. Then you'll have to go away and calculate divisions and post them on here, hoping that everybody reads them in 45 minutes. Then you'll have to have a set time for the Division 2 cup (let's say 20:00 CET) and another set time for the Division 1 cup (are we going 20:45 CET for this one?). Sounds like a whole lot of time, effort, hope, organising and bullshit is required to pull this off - and from experience of past organised cups, you'll also need a whole lot of luck to get the players to turn up at the right slots at the right times and not get fed up of coming, going, coming, going etc. 15 specs doesn't really work.

If you have problem with that, feel free to organize it with all of your ideas implemented. I'll be happy just to join and play.

No problem with you organising a cup at all. I just think that if somebody who isn't an admin wants to host a cup, they should be able to play it to their own rules without being questioned, considered and approved - as long as there is an admin willing to run it for them, that should be enough. Don't get me wrong, I've already pointed out that I think this is way to overcomplicated for all of the reasons shown above, so I wouldn't be willing to organise this for them without changes either. But that's why I asked the question - I thought you were running this for them and we were making suggestions to them to decide. Apparently you're not and this is your own cup now. All previous opinions still apply, I still think this is way too overcomplicated. And rather than Carlos Sainz, Enrico and co. taking everybody's opinions and laying down the rules so that we all know where we stand (as I advised them to do in my previous post) then I guess you should do that instead.

To Carlos Sainz, Enrico, etc. - sorry, but I wouldn't be willing to run your cup. As pointed out above, there is far too much organisation involved to provide this to over 20 people. I would be happy to run if it was limited to 20 people, without all of the divisions and qualifying, etc. Whiplash is willing to run something closer to your idea at least so this is better for you. I guess there wouldn't be any other admin willing to take this on and run exactly how you want it, so you may have to make do with this.

In which case, I guess nobody is allowed to organise their own cup to be hosted on a community server anymore without your "consideration"?

I was probably being dramatic here. But I hope that if admin/organisation was simple enough and 0 effort then you wouldn't say "no" just because you didn't like their ideas. We need to encourage new players to organise their own cups, see their ideas come to life and learn from any mistakes they make. And they need admins like us to give them that chance. That's probably what 99% of us older players had to do and we're still around. If somebody stamped all over my ideas from day 1 and did it their own way, I'm not sure I would've wanted to try again.

I'm just saying that it will be bad to make competition for 5-6 players and then come on Sunday on the server and say to all of non-subscribed players to leave.

That's pretty much what used to happen on community servers when there was an organised cup, non-subscribed players were asked to leave. Since most of the players who have signed up are probably going to be in for this even if you tell them that the qualifying mode is dogfight and all keys will be reversed, I doubt you'll only have 5-6 people. But unfortunately, organising a cup for over 20 people is very complicated, as I'm sure you will find out.

[Whiplash]

I'm not sure where you've read that all of their ideas are so clear and all the rules are perfectly calculated. All they said was: "Hey, what about a FC championship where cup points will be summarized?" - and I said: "O.K., let's do it". As I know, I considered all the main things they wanted.

Of course we should encourage players to give their ideas about the new competitions. But I would never accept that anyone dictate the number of community players that will participate in it. If you can't propose the idea of a cup that whole community will "potentially" enjoy, then your idea sucks at the beginning - and I'm not the admin who would ever support it.
This attitude can make us problems with organization, but we should rather have that than some "simple" and perfectly organized private party.

At the end, it's not my own competition - far from that!
It's our competition; and as long as it's like that - I'll support it.

P.S.
Don't worry, I'm gonna use sources to avoid organizing players by forum. All that some player need to do - is to join the server and follow the rules that are presented there.

And thinking about the qualification, I got this idea. We can avoid Hot Lap server by splitting the all players to 2 groups (or 3 - in case of a lot more players). First time I would split it by subscription order, and all the next weeks I would do it by Overall ranking (1. player - group A, 2. player - group B, and so on).
Then best 9 players of each group would drive DIV1 race, and the others DIV2 race. DIV2 race would start first and best 2 players there will also be able to participate DIV1 race that is next.

[Will]

Hey Whip, can I still join?

[Whiplash]

Hey Whip, can I still join?

Sure, you're in.

Anyway, we should define point system. Basically, I need points for 40 continuous positions. 1st and 20th should be some round numbers. Fell free to suggest it.

[iBlaze²]

That's cool Whip. I'm only saying these things because I've never seen an organised racing cup with over 20 people involved without it being 'open' wanking cups. All the historical successful racing cups; IRT TRC TNC iRAC F1 etc., all had a 20 player limit. Not so much dictated by the people organising a cup but by the server limits. Personally, I think it's better to have just 20 players running in a successful cup than to try to get 30 players and lose the interest of 20 of them because the organisation is rubbish.

But, if you do have a neat new way to organise this to allow over 20 to participate easily then that's awesome and I can't wait to see it. Your other sources have been great so I trust what you're saying. I'm just in an old frame of mind when it comes to these things, but I don't mind being proven wrong at all

[xzeal]

There has been a 2 tier f1 league before so it has been done before.

Points I would go with something like:

winner 50
second 42
third 36
4.th-10.th 31-26-24-23-22-21-20
11.th to 20.th - 19 to 10

Second group
Winner 20
second 18
third 17
4.th-10.th 16-15-14-13-12-11-10-
11.th to 20.th - 9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-1

Basically my thoughts on a good scoring system: to have a good multi league scoring system winning the second group should be WAY better than being last in the first group and the gap between winner and second needs to be rather big in the top group, also you need to avoid 0 points spots.

[iBlaze²]

There has been a 2 tier f1 league before so it has been done before.

I don't think I was around for this. Great to hear it can be done though.

Points I would go with something like:

winner 50
second 42
third 36
4.th-10.th 31-26-24-23-22-21-20
11.th to 20.th - 19 to 10

Second group
Winner 20
second 18
third 17
4.th-10.th 16-15-14-13-12-11-10-
11.th to 20.th - 9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-1

Basically my thoughts on a good scoring system: to have a good multi league scoring system winning the second group should be WAY better than being last in the first group and the gap between winner and second needs to be rather big in the top group, also you need to avoid 0 points spots.

This points system is good. Except for one thing. I'm not quite sure how you define the best 9 players in Whip's group idea (if it's purely current championship position then this may not matter), but if I deliberately ensure I'm slow enough to be in Div 2 then I can pick up 20 points for winning that, qualify for Div 1 and finish 10th there, giving me 40 points - almost as many points as the pro who finished 2nd in Div 1.

With this in mind, I don't think Div 2 winner and 2nd place should score for that, but they should score only for the place they finish in Div 1. Make all Div 1 places have higher points. They already got through to Div 1 to have the chance of higher points, let's not double-reward and make it a strategy.

My suggestion would be:
Div 1: 50-45-42-40-38-36-34-33-32-31-30-29-28-27-26-25-24-23-22-21
Div 2: 0-0-20-18-16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1

For the actual races in the cup, that should just be the current FC points. That works well.

[Whiplash]

...winning the second group should be WAY better than being last in the first group and the gap between winner and second needs to be rather big in the top group...

Hmm, yeah. At first I've actually forgotten that we're going to race cups, not a single races. So, all the points will be multiplied by 12. That's why my idea of having the same 1st Div2 and 20th Div1 pts fails. And, Div2 top players will obviously have to deal with a risk of losing some points by driving Div1 race. But, well, maybe that will make more fun in the end. We just need to get a good balance. I think you've found one.

...the gap between winner and second needs to be rather big in the top group...

There are few reasons why you could be wrong about this:
- FC is a chaotic racing. Many times you get win just by luck. That's why winning the single race isn't that relevant as consistency of getting top positions.
- Also, have in mind that we could get lower number of participating players in some Sunday's cup. In that case some player could get pervert advantage just by getting few 1st places in a row driving against less skilled opponents.

I'm not quite sure how you define the best 9 players in Whip's group idea...

The best 9 is just a suggestion. Maybe even better would be the best 3 (if 26 subscribed players remain), and then Div2 race could get us the rest of 14 players.
You will drive a normal qualification cup to get in top 9 (classic FC cup with current point system). There will be 2 of those qualification cups (for group A and group B). Top 9 of each races goes to Div1. The rest of the players go to Div2 race (cup) and fighting for potential top 2 positions, cause that's another chance to get in Div1. So, we can play around with those numbers:
top 9 (A+B group = 18) + top 2 Div2 players, or
top 5 (A+B group = 10) + top 10 Div2 players, or
top 3 (A+B group = 6) + top 14 Div2 players
As you can see, some players will potentially drive 3 cups: 1. qualification in his group (failed), qualification from Div2 (succeeded), Div1 cup.

Div 1: 50-45-42-40-38-36-34-33-32-31-30-29-28-27-26-25-24-23-22-21
Div 2: 0-0-20-18-16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1

As you can read above, I was wrong about having 1st Div2 and 20th Div1 equal. But I think your Div1 point system is better than xzeal's. Now we just need to get a good combo.

[iBlaze²]

Hmm, yeah. At first I've actually forgotten that we're going to race cups, not a single races. So, all the points will be multiplied by 12. That's why my idea of having the same 1st Div2 and 20th Div1 pts fails. And, Div2 top players will obviously have to deal with a risk of losing some points by driving Div1 race. But, well, maybe that will make more fun in the end. We just need to get a good balance. I think you've found one.

As I understand, points for individual races only decide cup positions. Points for those cup positions are then the ones that go towards the championship. I was thinking this would be is a 6 round championship determined by the points for cup positions, rather than a 72 race championship determined by points for race results?

In which case, only the points for the cup positions need sorting as we already have a points system for the individual races in those cups which works well to decide cup positions. So this also means there's no need for Div 2 players who go up to Div 1 to lose points from the championship because the individual race points are only to decide cup positions, so even if they score less race points in the Div 1 cup and finish 18th we can make this cup position worth more than the top of Div 2 cup so in the overall ranking they are still higher.

[Jan]

And thinking about the qualification, I got this idea. We can avoid Hot Lap server by splitting the all players to 2 groups (or 3 - in case of a lot more players). First time I would split it by subscription order, and all the next weeks I would do it by Overall ranking (1. player - group A, 2. player - group B, and so on).
Then best 9 players of each group would drive DIV1 race, and the others DIV2 race. DIV2 race would start first and best 2 players there will also be able to participate DIV1 race that is next.

This is a great idea! I totally support this idea or some variation of it as long as the places in Div1 and Div2 are determined in a Full Contact way. ^^

[Whiplash]

As I understand, points for individual races only decide cup positions. Points for those cup positions are then the ones that go towards the championship. I was thinking this would be is a 6 round championship determined by the points for cup positions, rather than a 72 race championship determined by points for race results?

Well, yeah, it can be described as 6x12=72 race championship.

...even if they score less race points in the Div 1 cup and finish 18th we can make this cup position worth more than the top of Div 2 cup so in the overall ranking they are still higher.

Yes, but let's avoid manual points giving. It's better that players see directly how many points they earned. I mean, their points should be presented on the server and not to be converted to some other system after that. Otherwise, It will be an extra pain to calculate championship points.
And, divisions - that's just the way to organize big group of players to play for one single continuous ranking. Divisions will not exist in any other way.

[Ender]

I*m in!

[Whiplash]

I*m in!

Done.

Anyway, I predict that sometimes we could have less players than planned in some of groups (A, for example). It would be bad if we're trying to get top 9 players, and there is only 8 players showed up. That's why we should decrease that number top 3. So, top 3 of each group (A and B) will go directly to Div1 race. That says that 7th Div2 position should be like 1st Div2 position. That should be considered for the final point system.

[iBlaze²]

Well, yeah, it can be described as 6x12=72 race championship.

Ah ok, I've completely misunderstood this whole competition then. I thought points would be earned through cup results not race results.

Maybe I should just turn up on Sunday and race instead of making ideas for something I know nothing about haha

[Enrico Papi]

Guys i think you completely misunderstood our idea of 2 divisions. In our minds these divisions are like two leagues in football/soccer/whatevernameyouuseinyourcountry
They are not linked, they are two completely divided leagues, the only thing that connects them is the fact that AT THE END of the whole competition, the three best of division2 are promoted in division1 and so the 3 worst in div1 are relegated in div2, nothing else

Someone in div2 will never participate.in div1 during the league, but the 3 best in div 2 will go in the div1 of an HYPOTHETICAL second Full Contact Championship

[Whiplash]

In our minds...leagues...

Oh, we are suddenly speaking about leagues now.

Someone in div2 will never participate.in div1 during the league, but the 3 best in div 2 will go in the div1 of an HYPOTHETICAL second Full Contact Championship

I know what you're saying, but think a bit how hard would that be to organize.
- How would you fairly decide who's where at first show up? I can't just randomly say that some player is in Div2.
- Also, we should aim Div1 cup to be full of 20 players. That's why we have to implement live qualification and sort players while seeing them online. We can never know who will participate and who not. Why would we have some players in Div2 if there are maybe free spots in Div1? Div1 race must be a Mayhem!

Anyway, I guess this is a good compromise:
Div1: 50-45-42-40-38-36-35-34-33-32-31-30-29-28-27-26-25-24-23-22
Div2: 35-32-30-29-28-27-26-25-24-23-22-21-20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13 (Div2 points will be redefined once we see how many players are subscribed).

[Azev]

One more for the competition - "Silva".

[iBlaze²]

Div1 race must be a Mayhem!

Completely agree.

Anyway, I guess this is a good compromise:
Div1: 50-45-42-40-38-36-35-34-33-32-31-30-29-28-27-26-25-24-23-22
Div2: 35-32-30-29-28-27-26-25-24-23-22-21-20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13 (Div2 points will be redefined once we see how many players are subscribed).

I like this, my only question would be whether your earlier suggestion (below) still stands too?

We could say that instead of all 6, overall ranking will summarize best 5 cups results. That way people could miss 1 race and still have a chance to win.

[Whiplash]

I like this, my only question would be whether your earlier suggestion (below) still stands too?

We could say that instead of all 6, overall ranking will summarize best 5 cups results. That way people could miss 1 race and still have a chance to win.

Yes, that stays.

[Jurgen-NL]

holy shit 67 new forum messages record for 2015 has been set lol over period of 3 days

[Enrico Papi]

In our minds...leagues...

Oh, we are suddenly speaking about leagues now.

Whip, that's what we meant since the beginning However we don't want to rule, we can do as you wish, what is important is that we run

[Alex Novo]

Im agree with the champ : Alex Novo


PD: I still love you Whipe