Recorded (personal) lap records - free for download?

Discussion related to Turbo Sliders and beta version feedback.

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Would you like to see videos of lap records as download free to all?

Yes, i am an average fast driver and i don't know how to drive this lap so damn fast!
1
6%
Yes, i am a slow driver and i need to improve my laptimes - i want to learn from the best!
0
No votes
Yes, i am a slow driver and i need to improve my laptimes - but also average fast laps would help me...
0
No votes
Actually yes, but on the other hand i want to improve my laps by myself first, before i search help in other peoples laps/lines
0
No votes
No, that's unfair against the record holders. They like to keep their secrets maybe.
3
18%
Yes, but only if at least the recordholders agree with the download of these videos.
12
71%
No, please not! My opponents will get as good as i am or better :(
0
No votes
These poll options are not matching enough my opinion - i will write a post with a detailed opinion.
1
6%
 
Total votes: 17

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Mike Nike
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Recorded (personal) lap records - free for download?

Post by Mike Nike » Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:25 pm

After writing this post (http://jollygoodgames.com/forum/viewtop ... =1398#1398), this topic follows with important things/questions...:

Since TS 1.04 recording races is possible and fast laps can be cutted to short replays.

So far, i always tried to improve my skill by own development (not asking others for tricks or how to drive a car or a track etc.) and so far that worked very well. I found out all tricks by myself so far or people told something without i asked them for example. As you can see, i like to gain the honor of _improving_ by myself without others help (that's typical for me). And this part, the time of improving, although it can sometimes take nervy hundrets of laps (like it was the case for the great newcomer Slider Valttu) before finding out the best line, is a real pleasure to me and it is distancing me from others.
And i want to give new drivers also the chance to find out all TS stuff, tricks, driving lines by their own, since only this can show them and others their own improving-skill. So, in the normal case, i never tell people, how they have to drive until they are asking me - then i am a fair teacher and try to give correct answers, anyway if they are sometimes not very useful ^^
So, when people ask, if i brake with EasySlider and i say, that "i am doing it not, normally", then they might be influenced and start/keep driving without braking with EasySlider.
By the way, I started EasySlider with braking often in TS 0.84, but soon i prefered driving without braking, like i did with speeder. But someday other people got too quick with braking with speeder, so i had to skip driving my speeder-slide-lines and get used to the brake.
With EasySlider, drivers are for my luck not too good yet, with braking (Silcir, colt are using the brake occasionly, Tijny maybe too) - i don't use the brake actually, since it is normally not really visible less fast and only 3 keys are to hit -> that's much easier with the arrow keys :)

Okay, back to the topic...
So far people could learn lines by their own OR they watched other people driving.
I am a driver which does not like to show special tricks in tracks, which others do not know, as long i have the record in the track...
For example: taking shortcuts or bouncing at trees or somewhere else ;)
Note: in TS 1.00 default tracks there is no real "shortcut" ;)
The same, Tijny seems to do ;) (he will know what i mean). It's kind of protecting the own driving line and the fear of others which could watch the record-line. OR it is the wish, like i spoke of, to give others the chance to find out the right line by their own.

Now, with the possibility to record laps, bad and good players can learn from better drivers' laps by
a) recording the other's driver lap while driving in the same race or spectating the race

and b) by downloading replays of good drivers


I think, it will now be much harder to protect it, that other people can watch your line and improve their skill by it. For newbies that's nice and also meant for - if they wish to improve by that and not totally by their own skill...
So, very good laps will be anyway catched by raceopponents, who like to have those fast laps examples of good drivers...

Now my question is:
Should lap records be possible as download?
Or should only average fast laps exist as download as kind of help to average or slow drivers?
Since lap records or kind equal laps (not far from the record) are sometimes a hard work for recordholders, example: LaTuska Minileap Slider 9.784.
I drove 9.833 where ~9.81x was possible and with much luck 9.79x would be reachable, but later i saw that i drove a 9.85x (or another high 9.8x) with driving over the grass in last corner, although i thought that cut would be too slow. Now i do not really know which way is faster - maybe i just ruined a great lap with that grasslap ;))
LaTuska found the best line out, i think. Maybe his line is much different from mine or others (Valttu, Ammo...) but who knows.
In my opinion LaTuska has driven the track just a bit too often - but - in combination with great skill and motivation to get the best slider in the group Demo of the record server or just to keep the record in MiniLeap.

But my question is: wouldn't it be kind unfair against LaTuska to show others his lap (line)? (Yes, there does not exist a video of his lap ;), but anyway)
I have or had for example in some tracks some deciding tricks, which helped me to be faster than all others and sometimes it need many hundret laps experimentation time to find out, that the "trick" is really a trick.

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Post by 8L4CK D05 » Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:19 pm

I vote with you, Mike :D

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Post by Guest » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:48 pm

I rather disagree with you.
I vote for:

No, that's unfair against the record holders. They like to keep their secrets maybe.

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road_oktane
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Post by road_oktane » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:51 pm

Sorry, it was me on previous post.

Btw the new TSB site will have a system of video upload, where the author can upload his video and put some comments. There will be a ranking system of videos and a user comments box for that video. But i'm looking for some php expert to implement that system for me. :D

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Post by JimMiE22o2 » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:58 am

cool idea, road_oktane
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Mike Nike
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Post by Mike Nike » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:25 am

Ah, very good.
I hoped, at least 1 webmaster would manage to solute a video exchange and comment system :)
Since i normally never use prescripted webstuff, i am fixed to html and the video exchange would be based just on download or emailing, for example when there is a competition of best totalracetimes - since TS doesn't support such racetimes and just a copy of the log.txt can be faked, a video of a race in addition to a log.txt can count as evidence enough. Example: local totalracetimes of >=4 laps which will be sent to a tournament hoster as qualification times to a special round or final cup of a tournament.

Maybe people will remember laptime tournaments of Gene Rallye - people drove local (what else..) and sent their laptimes in form of a kind of videos to the tournament hoster.

@Jani P. (Creator):
tsvideos.tk or com or tsreplays.tk or com or tsvideos.<domain>.com/tk would it be then, in the case you remember my suggestions few months ago.

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Post by Tijny » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:54 am

Okay, as I'm possibly one of the record holders, here's my opinion about this stuff:
I wouldn't have any problems at all if my record laps were published on the web, it could be a great help to slower drivers. I think it would be nice to see the real laps behind the (often non-understandable to many players) laptimes. For example, I'm sure watching a recorded record would be highly enjoyable for me. :P
It's also a great motivation to drive new lap records. :D

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Mike Nike
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Post by Mike Nike » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:28 am

Thank you Tijny for your statement :)
It might be of course a motivation to improve the records then, yes.
Especially when the lap record is obviously not perfect or you see, that the line is for example slower than your own line, maybe. Or your line is slower, but you got the same time and with driving another faster line, you would imrpove your record.

At the moment, i think, at least average good laps might be free for download.
Lap records or special tricks i would only sent to people, who do request me by emailing or asking in TS chat for example. Honorfull people like fasteddie i would easily give a copy of recorded laps, since i even start(ed) servers to teach him tracks, cars and general tricks...
Or teamintern or intern any other group, where members are helping other members, i would help as much as possible.

The behaviour to drivers like the recordholders or drivers, which have almost records, is quite different though at my case.
I worship their records as good as possible and i actually don't really want to learn from them due to known reasons and in addition it influences a bit the nice challange (too much).

But kind cooperations like deals of exchanging 2 replays or experimentations of laps would be nice to think about.
It was always nice so far, to have people, who are driving with you together for scientific projects, like: is the curve xy faster with a grasscut or not? colt will remember it, for example ;)
Or in a race, often in the first laps, like yesterday Tijny and i, i guess EasySlider it was in Forestry, we drove a ghostrace equal into a curve - he drove just his line, i guess and i could experiment with driving other lines, like braking or not braking or just accelerating longer, steering later etc.

With a feature of 2 ghost-laps overcross replayed, this would be maybe not necessary though...

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Post by JimMiE22o2 » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:44 pm

Well, I would LOVE to siLciR's easyslider at forestry, and I think Tijny would too. Your so close :wink: 23.995 :D

Nevermind. I just looked and Tijny has the record.. :D Well, I would LOVE to see both... :wink:
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Post by Mike Nike » Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:36 pm

I see thousands of Silcir's here :wink: ...

Pos Name Time Car Date
1. Tijny 23.925 EasySlider 23.4.2005
2. [PTZero] siLciR 23.941 EasySlider 2.4.2005
3. Kashmir 24.001 EasySlider 25.4.2005
4. siLciR 24.020 EasySlider 29.4.2005
5. [Pt] siLciR 24.089 EasySlider 30.3.2005
6. colt 24.089 EasySlider 3.4.2005
7. siLciR 24.100 EasySlider 1.4.2005
8. LaTuska 24.100 EasySlider 3.4.2005
9. [GER]Mike Nike 24.106 EasySlider 29.4.2005
10. Silc. c. lda. 24.140 EasySlider 25.3.2005
11. Bouree 24.144 EasySlider 23.3.2005
12. Mike Nike 24.145 EasySlider 7.3.2005
13. Razzle 24.150 EasySlider 15.3.2005
14. siLciR 24.159 EasySlider 23.4.2005

but no 23.995. What you mean Jimmie?
23.925 you meant perhaps...? If yes, then no answer is needed.

Edit: 7 different humans in the first 14 places to be precise ;)
Last edited by Mike Nike on Sun May 01, 2005 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JimMiE22o2 » Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:32 pm

Oh, Mike, I posted that before I saw Tijny's 23.925. His best yesterday was a 23.995.

Oh and yes, There are a lot of Tijny's/silcirs out there! (Kasmir is so close)
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Post by siLciR » Sun May 01, 2005 7:30 pm

hehe just to say to u mike that as i said 16.6xx in sandslid is possible 8) 8)

16.692 for now to be exact but under 16.650 isnt out of question at all :D :D


edit: now that i broke the 16.7 barrier i need to brake the 23.9 in forestry to keep tijny busy

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Post by JimMiE22o2 » Sun May 01, 2005 8:46 pm

U need to break 23.9?? Oh man, I just broke 24.5........ And a 16.6xy? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh
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Post by Mike Nike » Mon May 02, 2005 11:49 am

Silcir, 16.672 i drove a couple of days ago...at the day i told you i drove 16.772 very easy ;)

16.63-16.65 was reachable at least, i saw by watching the replay of my lap.
Forestry i drove already a 23.940, where 23.88x seemed reachable, but you can imagine, it is very hard to get a clean lap with only very good curves.

I saw Silcir and Tijny had different lines in Forestry and i have also another line in Forestry, which has matched maybe only 60-90% of the lines, Silcir took in the curves, when driving 24.0 times at my server. So another time, i could manage a faster or equal lap, by driving my own line, like in Sandslid, too.

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Post by Kobradog » Mon May 02, 2005 3:43 pm

I voted for the 1st option. I really don't care what the record holders think about making their fast laps public. They should drive locally if they don't want to share their secrets.

During the weekend I drove some online cups. Tijny was there too. He drove the Speeder way faster than my personal bests for example (you can imagine how shocked I was :P), but I couldn't get any faster by watching the replays and analyzing his lines.

It's not about knowing the lines (at least not for somebody at my level of suckiness), it's also about being able to control the car. I have a basic idea of good lines on many tracks, but driving along those lines is where the challenge lies.

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Post by RadKon » Mon May 02, 2005 6:51 pm

well see if you know the line you can work on controlling the car in that line and the more you train that line the faster you'll get. like mikenike was helping me with my line at forstry and it has heped me alot i have takin about .5 of a second off my times.Thanks mikenike:)

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Post by RadKon » Mon May 02, 2005 6:52 pm

oops helped not heped

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Post by JimMiE22o2 » Tue May 03, 2005 12:40 am

Kobradog says it perfectally. A line of a really fast driver can make some beginner a lot, but after that, its all about something else. :( Well, I still think there are plenty of fast lines at forestry, Mike, I just need to fine one ;D
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Post by Guest » Sat May 14, 2005 11:20 am

I agree with Mike that learning the tricks and lines yourself is most rewarding. However I couldn't have made some of my personal records without replays of Mike's lines when I've been playing on same server. But as some people have mentioned before, even you see the correct lines you still have to be able to control the car. In the beginning I've been able to drive the same lines but I've been slower. After some hard training I learned when I should brake, accelerate or loosen the throttle.

I think that the recordings or best laps should be available for downloading, but only if the record holder allows it. People can watch the replays, but they don't instantly become the fastest guys on track. They still have to figure out the right timings and tricks by themselves.

Yesterday I made my pb to puddles and after that I sended a picture to other oranges, where I had drawn my line. I also wrote my own thoughts about what to do, when to do it and why to do it. Few hours later Limp-pu drove exactly the same time that I earlier. In my opinion, this was more beneficial than a replay of my fastest lap. Though I think that if I had included one ( didn't record it) we could have compared it to Limp-pu's and maybe found out a better way to drive it if one would have been faster on different sections than the other.

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Post by Chukie » Sat May 14, 2005 11:57 am

Whups... that last guest who post a reply was me. :)
"We play more games before 9am than most people play all day."

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Post by Mike Nike » Sat May 14, 2005 12:34 pm

I think that the recordings or best laps should be available for downloading, but only if the record holder allows it.
Actually, there is another problem...
Since for some/many records exists many record holders, you actually need to talk with all of them (though actually you already give a player ranked 25 against a player ranked 20, which are fighting for the rank, and advantage, what player ranked 20 does not want, perhaps).
But i think...soon, it won't be anymore possible to avoid these conflicts.

Question to Tijny:
Example with Speeder in certain track(s) with a trick, powerhead needed a while to find it out:
what do you think about giving away copies of replays?
The later, the more people will have fast times, the harder it will be to avoid keeping secrets anyway.
And we can't drive all time online a line, which does not show certain secrets. Earlier or later, all tracks with all cars best lines will be driven online and cutted by slower drivers and shared in the internet as downloads for everyone, i think.
Well, all can give their comments to that...
People can watch the replays, but they don't instantly become the fastest guys on track. They still have to figure out the right timings and tricks by themselves.
Ande told me not long time ago, there is already a possibility next to the sound, to see, where a car is braking, accelerating and steering left or right. I'm on the way to create a filter of showing at least an output of text, which is not too big. But maybe Ande is implementing some day a feature for replays, which would show the input keys of the car, you are spectating in the replay (or even in the race, as spectator).

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Post by Hengari » Sat May 14, 2005 3:14 pm

I think that all of you record maniacs are on the wrong tracks. Games are meant to be fun and not to be take so seriously as I have lately seen on cups. The athmosphere was icy.

And what comes to record-videos, it is a free world and as the word is free also should the record-videos be free. The polls options didn't match my opions because although I'm not a potential record-breaker I like to see that other players get better (especially with slider) so that we get better racing.

If people don't want to see their driving lines recorded and watched, they should just race locally :)
oldschool slider <3 | Hengari @ Quakenet/IRCnet
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Post by Kobradog » Sat May 14, 2005 3:30 pm

Hengari wrote:I think that all of you record maniacs are on the wrong tracks. Games are meant to be fun and not to be take so seriously as I have lately seen on cups. The athmosphere was icy.
Funny, that icy atmosphere has driven me into improving my Anti times locally. :shock:

I don't race all that much online anymore, because most of the time it's just not fun. Too much bullcwap being thrown around. But I'm quite happy to drive around (and around, around, around) by myself & play an occasional Luvball match.

Have fun. :)

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Post by RadKon » Mon May 16, 2005 2:59 am

its fun tho to know you have a fast lap and that your a better player of the game, my biggest thing is people who drivewards.

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Post by Jazzyclub » Fri May 20, 2005 7:29 am

For me broke a record is a good reward but share video with all is a choice of breaker "everyone have secrets right?".
Another think is: someone can study your line and take a good time, the result? more fastest driver and in a cup this is very funny drive agaist fast driver.


PS: try to broke my record on my track LA CONCA 29.004 :wink:
the best is etana with 29.084

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