Why no Mods and cars from beginning on, etc. ?

[Afinfas]

Hi,
Didnt made a post for 2 or 3 years and now right away two in a row!

I just wanted to make a simple question that I never really understood until now. This occurred to me once again while reinstalling the game after quite some years of break.

Why doesnt the default installation comes with the many mods around? At least the F-1 car and the respective tracks, but also the PTM cars and tracks! They simply add much more to the game.

Also, the AI lines could be there as well so we simply can compete as single player. When I used to play the game I used to make AI lines for every track but....somehow I lost them all when I uninstalled the game, thinking I would never play it again.

I simply love this game but I also can be very critic of it. One of the most critics I can make is the fact of not being very newbie user friendly... you have to edit a lot of files in order to customize stuff and the standard installation doesnt come with what could bring. The already mentioned mods and AI lines. Also the rotary system, that makes cars smooth as hell, could be an option on the menu and not having to edit a file somewhere.

One last thing, Cars dont work if they are not added to the cars folder but, it cant be in a folder otherwise it oesnt recognize them. Makes everything very chaotic in terms of organization. Would be great to have everything in organized in folders, etc.

Sorry for long post but, I believe that these little things are one of the main reason why it doesnt captivate a lot of persons. It seems a too geek game, only for persons who understand about computers above average. I can say I understand quite some about computers but I still struggle with this game.
Above all, it simply could be more intuitive and newbie user friendly.

But hey...its still a great game!!! Otherwise I wouldnt have lost this time writing this post! So, hopefully someone can answer me...

[Mike Nike]

Why doesnt the default installation comes with the many mods around? At least the F-1 car and the respective tracks, but also the PTM cars and tracks! They simply add much more to the game.

What i prefer:
few people (i.e. Tijny, Bade, Whip, me or whoever admin/mod wants to) are in a group that decide which cars and tracks etc. will make the cut into the default car/track/tilesets/scriptexamples/autoserverfileexamples/whateverkindoffile pool that ends up in the package of the default download - as long as Ande is fine with it, of course. Not every single test car and test track each player ever made has to be downloaded by each newbie, right?
Also these members would take care of updating updateable links at pages where we advertise TS, such as some freewaregame sites. For that matter, it might be wise to use a shared TS-account for the future, i could imagine.

Also, the AI lines could be there as well so we simply can compete as single player. When I used to play the game I used to make AI lines for every track but....somehow I lost them all when I uninstalled the game, thinking I would never play it again.

wtf, you uninstalled turbosliders?!? who does that?!?!??!?
pre installed ai lines in the default download package. i like it.
There might be a way to actually create a different sliders menu, built in the default download, which would work nicely for newbies and pros as well: the installed link that is created on your desktop or startmenu folder would go to a slidersMenu.exe or something, from where you have options: 1) Start Game [sliders.exe] 2) Start Campain [settings will be setup with ai lines etc] 3) Start Editor 4) Start Autoserver 5) Configure Settings 6) ...

Also the rotary system, that makes cars smooth as hell, could be an option on the menu and not having to edit a file somewhere.

not sure what you mean. something like: you create a car in paint, save it as png, open sliders (or some SlidersMenu.exe), then navigate to the car and click on a button called "create rotations for this car" and it will generate up to 360 png files and changes the car-file accordingly?

One last thing, Cars dont work if they are not added to the cars folder but, it cant be in a folder otherwise it oesnt recognize them. Makes everything very chaotic in terms of organization.

Yeah, that has always been a nervy thing and is newbie unfriendly. I forgot, but i think Ande had valid reasons to not work on that.
Not sure though if there should be "organized" sub folders in /cars, instead of the 1 big car folder.
Anyway, a SlidersMenu.exe could include the option "automaticly move cars from cars/tmp to cars folder, so basicly players would only need to close sliders and restart it (via the SlidersMenu.exe or SlidersStarter.exe or however that pre menu could be called). Maybe there might even be a button in the menu saying "Quickly rejoin server" in order to go back to the online cup you just left.

I believe that these little things are one of the main reason why it doesnt captivate a lot of persons.

Agreed.

[Afinfas]

Hey Mike,
First of all thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments.

What i prefer:
few people (i.e. Tijny, Bade, Whip, me or whoever admin/mod wants to) are in a group that decide which cars and tracks etc. will make the cut into the default car/track/tilesets/scriptexamples/autoserverfileexamples/whateverkindoffile pool that ends up in the package of the default download - as long as Ande is fine with it, of course. Not every single test car and test track each player ever made has to be downloaded by each newbie, right?
Also these members would take care of updating updateable links at pages where we advertise TS, such as some freewaregame sites. For that matter, it might be wise to use a shared TS-account for the future, i could imagine.

Cmon, I was not saying all the test cars, etc. but at least the F1 and the PTM. Its only 2 cars, but 2 very nice ones with a specific way of driving, more realistic then the default ones, which is aimed more into arcade.
And, why installing a game and right after having to update it with content? Thats what I mean that it should come already with it.

wtf, you uninstalled turbosliders?!? who does that?!?!??!?
pre installed ai lines in the default download package. i like it.
There might be a way to actually create a different sliders menu, built in the default download, which would work nicely for newbies and pros as well: the installed link that is created on your desktop or startmenu folder would go to a slidersMenu.exe or something, from where you have options: 1) Start Game [sliders.exe] 2) Start Campain [settings will be setup with ai lines etc] 3) Start Editor 4) Start Autoserver 5) Configure Settings 6) ...

Hehehe....yes, I did! You know...became father and kind of had to stop playing video games! Not that I didnt wanted to but...lot to do and kind of a feeling of guilt when I play cause I could be doing something else more... "worth" it to my life.
Completely agree with that suggestion. What I dont get it, is why its not there yet, cause it seems so obvious to me. And thats why the whole post from me in first place. Exactly this kind of things.

not sure what you mean. something like: you create a car in paint, save it as png, open sliders (or some SlidersMenu.exe), then navigate to the car and click on a button called "create rotations for this car" and it will generate up to 360 png files and changes the car-file accordingly?

No, what I mean is: one of the last updates I remember, was the implementation of the rotary system on cars. Which means that cars dont turn like the pointers of a analogue clock, but smooth, like in real life. As far as I know, many players were drawn away by this kind of details. Many coming from NSGP, where car turned smoothly. Turning the car should be a smooth procedure. This leads to unique driving lines...which is far more interisting...cause you really can be precise/accurate in terms of driving.
So...I remember making some pre release tests with this new system, but I never made a race with it. And as far as I know, its not implemented on the default installation. But I remember that it was something that it had to be edited on some file...a car file I think. Another geek stuff to be made, when all cars should have it as default. Ok, except the ones that have special characteristics of course.

Yeah, that has always been a nervy thing and is newbie unfriendly. I forgot, but i think Ande had valid reasons to not work on that.
Not sure though if there should be "organized" sub folders in /cars, instead of the 1 big car folder.
Anyway, a SlidersMenu.exe could include the option "automaticly move cars from cars/tmp to cars folder, so basicly players would only need to close sliders and restart it (via the SlidersMenu.exe or SlidersStarter.exe or however that pre menu could be called). Maybe there might even be a button in the menu saying "Quickly rejoin server" in order to go back to the online cup you just left.

What can I say about it...yes, I remember hearing some reasons about it, of why it wasnt made like that. But forgot what was. Anyway, a point that wouldnt need discussion, if some more cars (not a lot but at least the already mentioned ones by obvious reasons) would be already included on default installation.

I believe that these little things are one of the main reason why it doesnt captivate a lot of persons.

Agreed.

So, why arent these things changed and made as a priority? In order to captivate more persons...new blood, cause believe it or not, if there isnt new blood joining this game, it will sadly eventually fade away... and only the energy of the geeks around here that still play it (geek mentioned on the good way ) wont be enough to keep it alive.

I think from all the classic topdown racing games I know, this is the one with more potential to be the leader and to stay around, with many more players, adding more content. I think it shouldnt be a free game to be honest. At least 10€ is more then worth it and I would gladly pay it, as I did for a license quite some years ago. Dont remember how much I payed but, I made it with pleasure cause I believe it. Im just sad by not seeing it improved how it could be.... the so obvious things we already discussed on this thread.
Quite sometimes Is important to step back a bit, and try to see things on a neutral way. You guys are so much involved on the game that you dont even see these issues that a newbie player has or might have. I wonder how many persons it has drawn away...


EDIT: On offtopic side. Did you guys have heard about this upcoming game that has failed its kickstarter campaign? Apex Racing League. But it will eventually release independently sometime this year? Looks cool but...first initial feeling is that its simply too much arcade for my taste but still...interesting. I backed it but....they saw they wouldnt achieve their goal so, they canceled the campaign. I think goal was set to high. 60,000$
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/19 ... nav_search

http://www.apexracingleague.net/

[Whiplash]

Yo there! Well, to be honest, Ande did ask us if we want to include some custom cars/tracks in our installation package, and we concluded that it wasn't the good idea at that moment. Reasons:
- Most of those mentioned cars are actually badly designed (all PTM cars are actually very buggy with a very bad design) and most of them had quite a primitive and not well tested handling. We thought that such cars will actually arrive in the future after more testings. I, personally, worked on few of them - but they still need to be tested in some serious competitions.
- Having more tracks/cars would increase the size of the installation package - we wanted to avoid that. In my opinion, such problem can be easily solved simply by the website. Whenever we get some stable versions of the cars, we will upload them on the site.

The main reason of low activity should be noticed in low number of serious competitions.

Anyway, shame on you because of deleting the game.

[Afinfas]

Yo there! Well, to be honest, Ande did ask us if we want to include some custom cars/tracks in our installation package, and we concluded that it wasn't the good idea at that moment. Reasons:
- Most of those mentioned cars are actually badly designed (all PTM cars are actually very buggy with a very bad design) and most of them had quite a primitive and not well tested handling. We thought that such cars will actually arrive in the future after more testings. I, personally, worked on few of them - but they still need to be tested in some serious competitions.
- Having more tracks/cars would increase the size of the installation package - we wanted to avoid that. In my opinion, such problem can be easily solved simply by the website. Whenever we get some stable versions of the cars, we will upload them on the site.

The main reason of low activity should be noticed in low number of serious competitions.

Anyway, shame on you because of deleting the game.

First of all...game is installed so, whats the fuzz about?

Second...with all due respect....that argument of the size of the installation package is a complete bollocks!! Cmon, thats not at all a valid argument. Whats the size of the current install? 23MB? Thats a ridiculous size so, a few more cars and tracks wouldnt add that much to the size and...nowadays with the current Internet speeds that is not an issue at all. GTA V 60GB!!?

About bad design of the cars...well, they could be included and later better designed or? They make loads of fun to play with at the current state already. And again, I remember making 1 or 2 tests with the rotary system implemented and...it was simply amazing to drive.

About downloads from website...again, please dont take it personal but, I think you are not seeing the big picture of it. You seem to be one more of the guys completely inside of the game and how it works, and for you its totally normal to go to the website and download more packages.
I make a suggestion trying to demonstrate what is to think on the big picture. What about instead of having to go to the website to download extra content, make it an option on the game itself!?
Like, you go to cars, where you can choose the car with which you're gonna play, and after you scroll down the list of the available cars, you have the option, download more. Which by pressing on it, it would open a list of the cars (mods) you can download. Same goes for tracks.
But way better then this, in order to save hassle, is to include them on the installation package, having to pay the price that the installation package increases! Even if it goes to the double. I think I would have to buy an extra hard drive for it!
Sorry, now I was just being mean with this comment but... that size argument just made my day!

Look, I say again, I have the same problem when im working on something. Im to much inside in order to be able to have a neutral opinion/point of view. So, I either create some distance and go back to it later with fresh mind, or I ask an outsider for a neutral opinion. Someone that doesnt have an emotional attachment to the thing in question.

I leave here a tease to all of you that seem to have the chance to do it:

Make a new installation package with extra cars (if possible with the rotary system implemented) and extra tracks included. To that installation, make AI lines for all tracks so you can play single player Online AND Offline. Im willing to help on doing them, even though im not a very fast driver. But we also need slower AI lines right?

Make an active permanent server championship where you can play against COM players. Humans can join ofcourse, removing for that 1 of the COM players, etc. Going into detail now... the COM player to be removed when a human joins would be the current last place of the championship that would be in progress.
I dont know but, I guess there would be the need to create one server for each type of car!!? I honestly dont know. If so...then choose 1 or 2 cars types like, F1 and PTM (Mercedes or BMW or Audi).

After these 4 simple steps (dont know if the server one is simple to do, for me its hard but I guess for you guys its doable), release the package and advertise it at least on the website, as a new user friendly package with more content. More cars and tracks to play AND, the possibility to race as a single player against COM ones. Offline AND Online!!
I put my hands on fire as it will significantly increase the thrill around the game and, if advertised on the right places, it can bring lots of new blood into the game!

Thats it...with this implemented, you have a user friendly newbie package, still with the possibility for the geeks to mess around things and editing files, etc.

Again...dont want to mess up with feeling around here. All im saying is on the constructive side and cause I really like the game and would love to see it improved, even if slightly. And for me, all these things I mentioned would be a BIG easy to do improvement!

EDIT: Ok, I remembered one more detail....even if not priority at all and it could be left out if it makes things way too complicated. Which is... a simple driver/car colors editing. In order to really fine customize your driver/car. Currently you have to edit a file inside the game....isn't possible to make it graphically inside the game on options?

Ok, I leave you guys in peace now...except if some similar argument about package size shows up! Then I have to intervene of course, in order to bring some sanity into place.

[Whiplash]

...that argument of the size of the installation package is a complete bollocks!!

Hah, sure, that does sound like a joke, but have in mind that the last version of the game had 10 release candidates before we got the final one. It's not that easy for the game developer to pack bigger files so many times. Also, our domain has really restrictive bandwidth - it already expired few times last year. And we don't think that having an external location for the game downloads sends a good message to a new player.

...please dont take it personal but, I think you are not seeing the big picture of it. You seem to be one more of the guys completely inside of the game and how it works, and for you its totally normal to go to the website and download more packages...

Well, that might be a true to some extent.

Like, you go to cars, where you can choose the car with which you're gonna play, and after you scroll down the list of the available cars, you have the option, download more. Which by pressing on it, it would open a list of the cars (mods) you can download. Same goes for tracks.

I like that idea. Good thing about it is that it keeps the game core cleaner. New version of the game will, for sure, bring some solution there. But one is for sure - we don't won't a MRO solution (description: having tons of useless contents were gameplay is lost).

Make a new installation package with extra cars (if possible with the rotary system implemented) and extra tracks included. To that installation, make AI lines for all tracks so you can play single player Online AND Offline. Im willing to help on doing them, even though im not a very fast driver. But we also need slower AI lines right?

That just sounds like an easy task, but in fact - it's far from it. Even I'm an experienced player, I would really have a problem to make selection of those tracks/cars. If something is included to the game, it has to have superb quality. Otherwise, it could just hurt what we already have - one small, clean, beautiful game.

Make an active permanent server championship where you can play against COM players. Humans can join ofcourse, removing for that 1 of the COM players, etc. Going into detail now... the COM player to be removed when a human joins would be the current last place of the championship that would be in progress.

Having COMs (AIs) players in the server and replaced with humans when they join is a quite easy to do thing. But, AIs are just not ready for such task yet. They need to be improved in many areas in order to be fun. Currently they're just too irritating (they don't know what full contact is, nor what fair play is, nor what pit is). Once they're improved, they will let us have some really fun experience that you're writing about. I hope Ande will get nerves to work on such a complex task at some point in the near future.
But, having a permanent competitions made just for human players is an already highly prioritized task of the latest game version. We got tons of great new options which allow complete control over the all players totally automatically. It's just not exploited yet unfortunately. The main reason is that coders (better say: Tijny) lost interest to do some coding work.

Ok, I remembered one more detail....even if not priority at all and it could be left out if it makes things way too complicated. Which is... a simple driver/car colors editing.

I'm not sure if I understand it well, but you CAN already do whatever you want with your colors trough the game menu. In the players profile menu just use arrows combined with shift/alt/ctrl and you can chose whatever color combo you want - you amateur.

In order to really fine customize your driver/car. Currently you have to edit a file inside the game....isn't possible to make it graphically inside the game on options?

It's more than just a graphical thing. To implement that, developer would need to change the whole logic/philosophy about the lap times. And you know, lap times are sacred in TS world. Once you change the car's parameters, you're basically driving a new car - that's what TS says in order to protect players' records and keep them authentic. And, if you ask me - I like that logic.

All in all:
I actually like to see I'm not the only idiot here speaking about the game improvement possibilities.

[Whiplash]

Ah, this thing too...

No, what I mean is: one of the last updates I remember, was the implementation of the rotary system on cars. Which means that cars dont turn like the pointers of a analogue clock, but smooth, like in real life. As far as I know, many players were drawn away by this kind of details. Many coming from NSGP, where car turned smoothly. Turning the car should be a smooth procedure. This leads to unique driving lines...which is far more interisting...cause you really can be precise/accurate in terms of driving.
So...I remember making some pre release tests with this new system, but I never made a race with it. And as far as I know, its not implemented on the default installation. But I remember that it was something that it had to be edited on some file...a car file I think. Another geek stuff to be made, when all cars should have it as default. Ok, except the ones that have special characteristics of course.

I think I've explained this to you once on YouTube, so I'll just copy/paste it for you here:
You misunderstood how the car editing works. Defining turning smoothness is a custom option in TS and it must be done in synchronization with car's 3D model rendering. You don't want to (and you can't) change that for existing default cars, because those cars are already rendered in 64 images. If a player wants to play the game, he doesn't need to open and edit any file. That new option is just made for car makers and allows them some more freedom when creating new cars. Once a new car is created, you can simply download it and play with it without thinking of anything. So, none of the players is supposed to be bothered with new car parameters, except they want to spend some time learning how to create a new car.
All players are always playing with totally the same car. You can't hack any file to make a car's turning smoother just for your self. If somebody changes the number of rotations for a car, the game will immediately recognize that as a totally new car. That's why nobody is changing that for any existing old cars.
Once the F1 Championship is officially started, all the players will get download link for this new F1 car. That car is rendered in 360 images and it will be smooth for everyone - simple as that. You won't need to open and edit any file. 

[Afinfas]

...that argument of the size of the installation package is a complete bollocks!!

Hah, sure, that does sound like a joke, but have in mind that the last version of the game had 10 release candidates before we got the final one. It's not that easy for the game developer to pack bigger files so many times. Also, our domain has really restrictive bandwidth - it already expired few times last year. And we don't think that having an external location for the game downloads sends a good message to a new player.

We are only speaking about adding cars and tracks which is not much in terms of size im sure.

About the domain bandwidth... well, thats a problem that it would have to be solved but, to be honest I dont think an external location would send any bad message at all. Cmon, its an independent game, doesnt have the resources big companies have.
Have you looked for alternatives in terms of server? (you said the domain has resctritive bandwidth, which I assume you wanted to say server, cause domains dont have restrictions on bandwidth). If so, is it much more expensive then the current one? Nowadays servers can be quite affordable.
To this point, the setting of a price for the game would be suitable...at least to pay the costs (Server with enough bandwith/space). I used to make that as well with some guys...on minecraft. We just bought a server for 3 months and shared costs, which was something like 20Euros total....divide that for 5/10 persons...anyway...you got the point.

Like, you go to cars, where you can choose the car with which you're gonna play, and after you scroll down the list of the available cars, you have the option, download more. Which by pressing on it, it would open a list of the cars (mods) you can download. Same goes for tracks.

I like that idea. Good thing about it is that it keeps the game core cleaner. New version of the game will, for sure, bring some solution there. But one is for sure - we don't won't a MRO solution (description: having tons of useless contents were gameplay is lost).

No, no...look, gameplay doesnt have to be changed at all cause thats exactly a strong point on TS. But I dont see where more options would harm the game experience. Specially the ones we have been speaking about, that clearly add something extra to it.

Make a new installation package with extra cars (if possible with the rotary system implemented) and extra tracks included. To that installation, make AI lines for all tracks so you can play single player Online AND Offline. Im willing to help on doing them, even though im not a very fast driver. But we also need slower AI lines right?

That just sounds like an easy task, but in fact - it's far from it. Even I'm an experienced player, I would really have a problem to make selection of those tracks/cars. If something is included to the game, it has to have superb quality. Otherwise, it could just hurt what we already have - one small, clean, beautiful game.

On that point, we seem to disagree on the fact that it would be a hard task. He have made 2 championships of PTM and several of F1. Simply add those tracks and cars...they worked pretty good I have to say! Whats wrong with those for you?
But of course I agree with you in terms of the quality. Dont put just crap inside, just for the sake of putting but...cmon, those tracks and cars are not at all crap! On the contrary.

And now before I forget, a small detail that would instantly double the amount of tracks. While choosing a track, make it that its possible to select running clockwise or counterclockwise. A simple check box. Like this you double the tracks where you can race on.

Make an active permanent server championship where you can play against COM players. Humans can join ofcourse, removing for that 1 of the COM players, etc. Going into detail now... the COM player to be removed when a human joins would be the current last place of the championship that would be in progress.

Having COMs (AIs) players in the server and replaced with humans when they join is a quite easy to do thing. But, AIs are just not ready for such task yet. They need to be improved in many areas in order to be fun. Currently they're just too irritating (they don't know what full contact is, nor what fair play is, nor what pit is). Once they're improved, they will let us have some really fun experience that you're writing about. I hope Ande will get nerves to work on such a complex task at some point in the near future.
But, having a permanent competitions made just for human players is an already highly prioritized task of the latest game version. We got tons of great new options which allow complete control over the all players totally automatically. It's just not exploited yet unfortunately. The main reason is that coders (better say: Tijny) lost interest to do some coding work.

Ok, this is a point where we clearly disagree. Even though I also think the AI lines are far from optimal, they surely could be already included, cause it already makes tons of fun. Ok, they dont respect fairplay which is irritating but, to be honest, when things like that happen while im racing, a COM car pushing you aside, it gives me extra motivation to go and chase the bastard and pass him over and "show" him what fair play is!! Even if they dont learn anything!!! Really, its not an excuse not to have them.
Allow me an analogy. If you want something properly done...its better that you start with it somehow, and as time progresses, you improve it. If you wait until everything is perfect, you risk not doing anything about it.
When I used to play FPS, I had the tendency of saving good weapons for special moments in the future, cause they were good, like shotguns, etc. But I have to be honest with you and say that on quite some games, I have reached the end of it having barely used those weapons!!!!

Having irritating AI lines/drivers, could be even a motivation factor in order to improve things... coders to address time to it eventually!? But cause they are not there (Ai lines), they are not even an issue I would say. You get my point?
For me, this point of AI lines it should be a must have priority. Its clear as water.

Ok, I remembered one more detail....even if not priority at all and it could be left out if it makes things way too complicated. Which is... a simple driver/car colors editing.

I'm not sure if I understand it well, but you CAN already do whatever you want with your colors trough the game menu. In the players profile menu just use arrows combined with shift/alt/ctrl and you can chose whatever color combo you want - you amateur.

Oh yes, you are right and I actually remember that. I mentioned it cause one time I wanted to have the exact same colors I had in one car, but it was quite complex/confusing to get it. Not intuitive, at least for me. So I had to go to the driver file and edit the color codes (copying and pasting the old values). And yes...I can be a geek as well...I just prefer easier things! And sometimes I just want to quickly play.

In order to really fine customize your driver/car. Currently you have to edit a file inside the game....isn't possible to make it graphically inside the game on options?

It's more than just a graphical thing. To implement that, developer would need to change the whole logic/philosophy about the lap times. And you know, lap times are sacred in TS world. Once you change the car's parameters, you're basically driving a new car - that's what TS says in order to protect players' records and keep them authentic. And, if you ask me - I like that logic.

Oh...I think we missed understood each other on this one. What I said was still in respect of the colors of cars/drivers.
Of course I agree with you on laptimes...dont like cheatings. But actually you touch on another point. I remember racing the PTM championship and...oh my god!!! The announcer wouldnt stop saying new lap record!!!!! Simply due to the fact that there were 3 "different" cars. Which they werent at all....performance was exactly the same...only design was different. Seems like an easy fix!? Like, cars with same parameters, are basically the same. Can have different colors and designs but, if they race the same way, consider it the same car. Instead of BMW or a Mercedes, a PTM car, for example.

All in all:
I actually like to see I'm not the only idiot here speaking about the game improvement possibilities.

Hehe... I have questioned these things already quite some years ago...and this, leads me exactly to the point of the FPS analogy. You really get what I mean now?
If these things are not implemented relatively soon, there is a big risk they will never be. Being cause the developers married and got kids, or they completely changed their area, or simply cause interest vanishes...as you pointed out that it seems to be the case with Tijny.
So, one step at the time... but when I see its already possible to do some things and they are not done cause you are waiting that they are perfect, it kind of leaves me sad/anxious/frustrated.

I already told quite some gaming friends...if lottery (Eurommilion) would knock me at the door, I would definitely apply funds in order to develop a topdown racing game to perfection (What I see it as perfection), and TS, could really be the starting point!

There was a vey nice thread on NSGP exploring exactly this point. Whats ideally the best topdown racing game?

I add some obvious points for me:

[*]Excellent racing game play/experience. TS is a great example of what this point concerns, even if there are lots of fine sharps edges to smooth ofcourse.

[*]Single player campaign, starting on Karts, F3, F2, F1, etc.

[*]Managing options, Grand Prix manager style (optional of course)

[*]Pitstops (damage and tires), penalties, flags (optional as well)

[*]Dynamic weather, affecting driving experience of course. Which leads to different kind of tires, etc.

[*]Intuitive Track editor, accessible to anyone.

[*]Great AI, fairplay driving, learning with experience

[*]Online racing/championships. I can even imagine this with real money prizes. Like winner of an online championship
gets a symbolic amount. Those funds would come from small entry payments fees.


Ok, I stop here cause I have a lot of other things to do and im loosing myself with ideas and idealistic things that I think they will never exist in a a top down racing game. At least not all together on the same package. You have already these things but, all spread on different games!

EDIT: Oh, yeah, now I remember that you have already answered me on youtube about that rotary system point. But see? Why its still not on the default package? The car that I have tried with that system on was amazing to drive...where is it? What are you guys waiting for to release it officially? Not on a underground download page on a geek forum!
By the way...if you have somewhere, drop me a PM with a link so I can try it out again one of these days..if I manage to make it work! I tried lately some cars but they simply werent showing up on the options...even if I copy them to the right place.

[Whiplash]

All from above...

Ok, ok - you won! Next time we get the new version, we will for sure have in mind to add custom cars/tracks/AI lines to it. But in the meanwhile we need to prepare high-quality ones. I've already rendered nice models of touring cars (WTCC and GT pack), some F1 and Kart models for that purpose. We just need to decide their handling in the next time.
And I will try to do something about the AIs on one of the F1 servers. My initial idea is to add them in the F1-4K server (which is more suitable for "non-pit" races). Next we could rename all the AIs there to real F1 drivers maybe. The further idea could be to have some script there which will organize players in teams and show constructor pts (but I'm not sure how T and Badee will react to it). Have in mind that this probably won't come too soon, because I need to reedit most of those tracks once again.

I remember racing the PTM championship and...oh my god!!! The announcer wouldnt stop saying new lap record!!!!! Simply due to the fact that there were 3 "different" cars. Which they werent at all....performance was exactly the same...only design was different. Seems like an easy fix!? Like, cars with same parameters, are basically the same. Can have different colors and designs but, if they race the same way, consider it the same car. Instead of BMW or a Mercedes, a PTM car, for example.

That problem is already solved (more or less) long time ago. Ande just decided to do it the other (easier) way - the game simply don't show that you broke a record if there is no any record set yet. That's change is implemented few years ago, you amateur. You would've noticed it if you weren't uninstalled the game.

I already told quite some gaming friends...if lottery (Eurommilion) would knock me at the door, I would definitely apply funds in order to develop a topdown racing game to perfection (What I see it as perfection), and TS, could really be the starting point!

There was a vey nice thread on NSGP exploring exactly this point. Whats ideally the best topdown racing game?

I add some obvious points for me:

[*]Excellent racing game play/experience. TS is a great example of what this point concerns, even if there are lots of fine sharps edges to smooth ofcourse.

[*]Single player campaign, starting on Karts, F3, F2, F1, etc.

[*]Managing options, Grand Prix manager style (optional of course)

[*]Pitstops (damage and tires), penalties, flags (optional as well)

[*]Dynamic weather, affecting driving experience of course. Which leads to different kind of tires, etc.

[*]Intuitive Track editor, accessible to anyone.

[*]Great AI, fairplay driving, learning with experience

[*]Online racing/championships. I can even imagine this with real money prizes. Like winner of an online championship
gets a symbolic amount. Those funds would come from small entry payments fees.

Ok, I stop here cause I have a lot of other things to do and im loosing myself with ideas and idealistic things that I think they will never exist in a a top down racing game. At least not all together on the same package. You have already these things but, all spread on different games!

It's actually not a dream anymore. I know a guy who's only capable to do that job like a boss. Just follow THIS LINK. He's just a lazy bastard from time to time, but I still believe in him.

Oh, yeah, now I remember that you have already answered me on youtube about that rotary system point. But see? Why its still not on the default package? The car that I have tried with that system on was amazing to drive...where is it? What are you guys waiting for to release it officially? Not on a underground download page on a geek forum!

God damn, focus on what I'm writing you. It is already included to the official game as an option for all new cars we create (moreover, all my new cars are created like that). We can't implement it on default cars, because we don't have those 3D car models to rotate them in 360 images. So, they are fixed to 64. I've actually contacted TS's 3D artist long time ago in order to get those models, but he told me he probably lost them many years ago already. Anyway, even if we had them back, I believe 360 rotated cars wouldn't feel good on default tracks. So, it's good to keep them as they are.

By the way...if you have somewhere, drop me a PM with a link so I can try it out again one of these days..if I manage to make it work! I tried lately some cars but they simply werent showing up on the options...even if I copy them to the right place.

You can download such cars easily already (link). Try Exo, F1-Genesis, WTCC and GT cars etc. (those are rendered in 360 images).
I'm not sure what mistake you did about placing their files. This is the procedure:
- close the game;
- take all car(s) files and put them inside of "cars" folder (not "tmp" sub-folder!)
- run the game, you amateur.

[Afinfas]

It's actually not a dream anymore. I know a guy who's only capable to do that job like a boss. Just follow THIS LINK. He's just a lazy bastard from time to time, but I still believe in him.

Nice...but last update was almost 1 year ago!

Oh, yeah, now I remember that you have already answered me on youtube about that rotary system point. But see? Why its still not on the default package? The car that I have tried with that system on was amazing to drive...where is it? What are you guys waiting for to release it officially? Not on a underground download page on a geek forum!

God damn, focus on what I'm writing you. It is already included to the official game as an option for all new cars we create (moreover, all my new cars are created like that). We can't implement it on default cars, because we don't have those 3D car models to rotate them in 360 images. So, they are fixed to 64. I've actually contacted TS's 3D artist long time ago in order to get those models, but he told me he probably lost them many years ago already. Anyway, even if we had them back, I believe 360 rotated cars wouldn't feel good on default tracks. So, it's good to keep them as they are.

I was focused! And I clearly understood that it is already implemented but, what I was saying is that I still dont see cars rendered in 360 on the default install, only that!

By the way...if you have somewhere, drop me a PM with a link so I can try it out again one of these days..if I manage to make it work! I tried lately some cars but they simply werent showing up on the options...even if I copy them to the right place.

You can download such cars easily already (link). Try Exo, F1-Genesis, WTCC and GT cars etc. (those are rendered in 360 images).
I'm not sure what mistake you did about placing their files. This is the procedure:
- close the game;
- take all car(s) files and put them inside of "cars" folder (not "tmp" sub-folder!)
- run the game, you amateur.

[/quote]

Ok, I did quickly downloaded the cars you mentioned and... yeah, smooth as hell with the 360 images but...I cant drive those cars! They are a block on the tarmac and they simply dont turn. Or they turn exactly the same, if they going fast or slow... not what I expected to be honest. And definitely not worth it to have it on the default install. Trying not to harm feelings as I know you have created some of those...

Ok, being concrete and more brief on my post:
Pick up the driving characteristics of the PTM car, which I just made a quick race on the only track I had the patience to create AI lines... which is rendered in 60 images or similar, and change it to 360 images. Make it turn smooth! If you manage that, leaving the same gameplay of the car, its perfect for the default installation.
Same goes for the normal F1 car that TS got known for its online championship.
I wasnt asking to release all mod cars on default install...simply the good ones, and those 2 are simply 2 of the best out there....well, its only my opinion but, I think you agree or?

And I dont want to win anything...I just want a better game. So, I hope that a release with the things we have been discussing is coming out soon. Unfortunately I know it will quite some time. When that does....if you remember, please drop me a line here on this thread cause I will receive a notification...otherwise I might forget to check it out.

Cheers mate...im happy to see im not the only one loving topdown racing games.... I think I got the bug of it with Super cars 2 on my Amiga, or superoffroad...and of course then came Genrally, etc.

[Whiplash]

Last update was actually few months ago (check the changelog)

About the cars - I'm not sure, but I think I based that Exo on PTM setup. All the other cars are made for 4000x4000 tracks and can be properly tested only there. I only consider F1-Genesis as a finished car. All the other ones will need a lot of tweaks, since the newest version got tons of new car parameters (downforce etc.).

[Afinfas]

Last update was actually few months ago (check the changelog)

About the cars - I'm not sure, but I think I based that Exo on PTM setup. All the other cars are made for 4000x4000 tracks and can be properly tested only there. I only consider F1-Genesis as a finished car. All the other ones will need a lot of tweaks, since the newest version got tons of new car parameters (downforce etc.).

Thanks for the log link!

One last thing. Sorry if I didnt really know how to do it and might say something stupid but... what I meant with the PTM and F1 cars.
Isnt possible to "simply" pass the current PTM car with 60 images, to 360 images? And keep exactly same gameplay, driving experience? Nothing else changes, just that!
Make car turn smooth without being like the pointers of a clock.
No need to mess with the other new parameters like downforce, etc.

And...can I do it somehow? I would be willing to try it if its not hard but, I honestly dont have a clue how to do it. But if its not too complex, and you or someone else explains, I might be wiling to give it a try.

EDIT: About the cars and 4000x4000 tracks... again adds to all my points. See what I mean? I downloaded the car but I cant really play with it if I dont download something else...a track to play on it. Those 2 steps should be concerted in 1 step, or at its best, in 0 steps. Starting the game and its done. Sorry for banging always on the same key all the time but, you see how I really believe its an important point that is easily unseen.

[Whiplash]

Isnt possible to "simply" pass the current PTM car with 60 images, to 360 images? And keep exactly same gameplay, driving experience? Nothing else changes, just that!
And...can I do it somehow? I would be willing to try it if its not hard but, I honestly dont have a clue how to do it. But if its not too complex, and you or someone else explains, I might be wiling to give it a try.

Damn, I already wrote that I actually based my Exo car on PTM setup (at least that's what I think so), And, yes, it's easy as shit to do it by yourself (in case of 1 image cars, what all PTM cars are). You just need to open the .car file with Notepad or Wordpad and just write rotations 360 line before the lines which define image and pat. Here is the example of Exo:

Car
Exo
description 1
Exo is a concept car with extreme speed and handling.
antislide 7
acceleration 96
enginefriction 0.05
viscosity 0.3
nonslidesector 0.4
slidebraking 30
slidedeceleration 20
braking 72
steering 1.82
elasticity 0.3
grip 190
weight 1245
smokelimitbraking 0.6
fullturningspeed 25
invertturningonreverse 1
flyingsteeringfactor 0
rotations 360
mask Exo-pat.png 0 0 32 32
rotimage Exo.png 0 0 16200 45 2.25
tire 12.5 22.5
tire 19.5 22.5
enginesample Exo.wav
End

EDIT: About the cars and 4000x4000 tracks... again adds to all my points. See what I mean? I downloaded the car but I cant really play with it if I dont download something else...a track to play on it. Those 2 steps should be concerted in 1 step, or at its best, in 0 steps. Starting the game and its done. Sorry for banging always on the same key all the time but, you see how I really believe its an important point that is easily unseen.

Yes, yes - we will simply add all those F1 tracks from 2K and 4K servers to the game and all cars we prepare. I could easily use those WTCC car models combined with PTM car parameters, but I would rather take them for more "realistic" setup that I plan to create.
Btw, I noticed a small (almost unnoticeable) but irritating bug about all single-image cars. When you rotate them, they slightly jump at 0 degrees. I hope it can be fixed in the future, even we would avoid having any single-image cars in default installation.

[Afinfas]

Damn, I already wrote that I actually based my Exo car on PTM setup (at least that's what I think so), And, yes, it's easy as shit to do it by yourself (in case of 1 image cars, what all PTM cars are). You just need to open the .car file with Notepad or Wordpad and just write rotations 360 line before the lines which define image and pat. Here is the example of Exo:

Car
Exo
description 1
Exo is a concept car with extreme speed and handling.
antislide 7
acceleration 96
enginefriction 0.05
viscosity 0.3
nonslidesector 0.4
slidebraking 30
slidedeceleration 20
braking 72
steering 1.82
elasticity 0.3
grip 190
weight 1245
smokelimitbraking 0.6
fullturningspeed 25
invertturningonreverse 1
flyingsteeringfactor 0
rotations 360
mask Exo-pat.png 0 0 32 32
rotimage Exo.png 0 0 16200 45 2.25
tire 12.5 22.5
tire 19.5 22.5
enginesample Exo.wav
End

EDIT: About the cars and 4000x4000 tracks... again adds to all my points. See what I mean? I downloaded the car but I cant really play with it if I dont download something else...a track to play on it. Those 2 steps should be concerted in 1 step, or at its best, in 0 steps. Starting the game and its done. Sorry for banging always on the same key all the time but, you see how I really believe its an important point that is easily unseen.

Yes, yes - we will simply add all those F1 tracks from 2K and 4K servers to the game and all cars we prepare. I could easily use those WTCC car models combined with PTM car parameters, but I would rather take them for more "realistic" setup that I plan to create.
Btw, I noticed a small (almost unnoticeable) but irritating bug about all single-image cars. When you rotate them, they slightly jump at 0 degrees. I hope it can be fixed in the future, even we would avoid having any single-image cars in default installation.

Thanks for the info...I will give it a quick try to see if I managed to do that. Never made this kind of stuff but, its learnable.
But...can you elaborate more on how to do it? Sorry, completely newbie on how to do it. Ok, I see that there is a PNG picture of the car in 360 positions, which is what it makes it smooth. So, How can I make the same for the PTM cars? Im missing the process itself how to do it...photoshop and select the car and rotate it 1 degree 359 times? You know what I mean?
If you have the patience please explain me the process like if I was an amateur!!!

And now a big WTF!!!!!! I tried the cars you pointed me out, but....the only one I didnt try was exactly the EXO! I just tried it now and.... OMG!!! Its amazing car man!!
Question....why the F$$$ is this car not included on the package? Its the best one of all for me!!! Really!!! I gave some laps in order to make some AI lines on my "test" track, Nurburgring Sprint and, right after I couldnt resit in doing a another race but...with opponents!!! Simply Astonished by it! And indeed it feels like the PTM handling but...with the original one I can make laps on 25s and on this one only 26.5s. And I think im wasnt driving completely slower...there were some laps that could have been a clear 25.7 but no...so there is definitly something doifferent then original PTM but...the name on the record shows PTM-BMW, and not EXO. You should get the credit for it, having the car name showing up on the record. Make it official!

Here, I made a 20 laps AI lines....maybe you wanna have some fun and see how fun it can be, even without Fair play driving!
http://afonsoribeiro.de/UPLOADserver/PT ... nt.lap.new

The 20 lap race I made, on level 4 COM drivers, I started in the middle of the pack, and got some accidents on first laps that threw me to around 18th place....started climbing the standings, using also some mistakes from other COM players (cause my AI lines made that as well!! Not on purpose though but actually it also adds something to it. Its normal that cars have accidents and stuff...) Last 4 laps I was 4th, 3 laps to go the 2 cars in front of me had a crash, I go to 2nd with only 1 car to the win....adrenaline shows up cause I can reach 1st...I see him there. Got him and ended on first place beating the record of the track.

How fun does that sound???

And now another easy fix I would say but one that should have been there for a long, long time! WTF do we need the standings of all drivers on race??? Specially when you are in 4th place or so...why you need the standing of the last one??
Displaying the standings of all, it makes that letters have to be small as hell...which make them very hard to read and...guess what? I had loads of crashes trying to see which place I was, and the seconds.... I might sue TS for making me wear glasses someday in the future!

It should only show your relevant opponents...or at least having it as an option as well, another tab.
Like, the first 5 cars in front and on back of you, showing the differences, etc. Then letters could be slightly bigger and way more clear to see!
If you want to go deeper on that, just update the top info, over the standings, with the display of the current lap time, the one you just made and the record of the track, fading away or simply disappearing after 4 or 5 seconds. Or leave it there as an option.
If you want to go even deeper , play with colors on the text. Which I think it would be really nice...the same orange color for all the text doesnt help at all in getting the info! Also full stabdings should display a background color on teh names of the drivers but follwing a certain color pattern like Microsoft excell has with the cells. 1 white, another dark grey.... a nice choosen color scheme for it would be great. Something very slightly...it helps a lot in distinguish things better.
When you set a track record, lap time turns RED. When you beat your own track record, letters green, the lap time of slower lap, Grey/White.

So, the resume of this session of brainstorming on little ideas that would significantly improve the driving/racing experience, (which I think it is what everyone wants to have), is:

------> Add that EXO amazing car with its respective tracks. Being the PTM ones cause even the car is based on that, even if slightly slower.

-----> Idea of standings, showing only relevant opponents, as an option. The full standings could be left as well of course. But you can change between "menus/tabs of info, how we have it now, being no info, full standings and the other one with current position that... distracts me and takes away the driving experience in some aspects. Thers some info on bottom of the car im driving...it irritates me a bit while driving so...I never use that tab of info.

-----> Idea of updating the top info with the introduction of current lap time, track record (in red), and previous lap + plus color scheme, etc.

Sorry again for long text...wasnt planned but...I had to give you the feedback after trying this amazing car... and its leaving me a lot the will of trying, even harder then I already do, to convince you guys to make an update for this gem of a racing game happen... and relatively soon....not in 6 months or 1 year!!!!

Sad that no one joins the discussion... you see what I mean with persons loosing interest and then things fading away? Updates and implementation of new "easy" ideas, etc.

[Whiplash]

Question....why the F$$$ is this car not included on the package?

Well, I guess it will be.
Btw, I recommend you also to make some of your own car setups and test them. Then we can consider to include those too. I spent over 100 hours creating rot-images for different cars - you can now use them and experiment with different types of handling. Once you create your own "perfect" car, I'll take it and add it to the game. You can actually create as many of them as you want. The procedure is easy as shit:
- Download one of those "unfinished cars" (LINK)
- Chose the car you like a lot (in terms of looking) and place its files to the "cars" folder
- Open .car file with Notepad or Wordpad
- Play around with all those parameters (just don't touch last 6 lines) (you can even simply copy/paste parameters from PTM car and then tweak them).
- Save file, run the game, etc. etc.

You can find description of all parameters at the beginning of cardef.car file, which is inside of "cars" folder. But that's just if you want to know all the hacks. Otherwise, you can simply just change numbers and see what you've done (by playing). Have a look into F1-Genesis .car file. It's the most sophisticated car with many new parameters added. You can include those too and play around with them in order to get your "perfect" car.

...the name on the record shows PTM-BMW, and not EXO. You should get the credit for it, having the car name showing up on the record.

Hmm, do I understand it well: You're seeing info like you got record by PTM-BMW instead of Exo? That's weird (doesn't happen to me). There is a chance you had this car already before it was finished (maybe it's placed inside of "tmp" sub-folder). If yes, delete it.

WTF do we need the standings of all drivers on race???

Well, I have similar suggestions written on the paper, but I didn't wan't to bother Ande with those yet - he didn't have much time. Also, I asked him to give us option for scalable fonts hoping that it's easy to implement. But he actually told me it's a pain (just like everything about the GUI). We need to catch him in a better moment for such change. Anyway, don't worry - I'll have all your ideas stored on the paper.