AAA Looking for Anti Mannisto

[Jazzyclub]

a long time i didnt see you somewhere, are you alive? i know about your situation with the new coming in your family (congrats ) but give us some news-notice-replies or anything else...

We all are waiting you, pls be more active

[dede]

I wanted to launch ts.com on September. Few things to be completed with JGG/Ande, but answers via e-mail take almost 15 days each (one e-mail took 1 month lol). Probably they are trying to convince us that TS is dead and that we should give up.

[kovalainen]

Well I hope they dont think that ts is dead. Ts is going from strength to strength, i guess they have other "priorities".

[dby]

I hope not. I hate to see great projects die at the verge of fulfilling it's true potential. I think the game has developed nicely since last release, with mods etc. Some small support could make it possible for the community to develope the game even further, I hope Ande is just taking a break as there have been some good suggestions that seem pretty straight forward to implement. TS is on the brink of having it's own life. The lack of ts.com is one major drawback here.

[mikko]

As JGG has silently made it clear, they do not appear to have any interests whatsoever towards this game anymore. That is a great pity as it seems to me that the game is going pretty strong at the moment. At least there is frequently action at the servers, which was not the case about a year or so ago. I’m sure this is very disappointing for most of us and, in particular, it must be that for Dede who has significantly sacrificed his free time by working with ts.com. I would hate to see Dede’s efforts become waste of time. That would simply be wrong.

Regarding the subject, I have two questions for all of you:

1. Could it be possible to just forget JGG and go for ts.com without them?
2. If yes, would you be willing to reward Dede?

Basically, I see that Dede’s efforts could be rewarded in two ways: (1) By assisting him with ts.com or (2) financial support. Sure many are willing to assist him, and apparently many already have, I’m not quite aware of the real situation to be honest. But then there are many of us, including me, who are, for a reason or another, not capable of providing assistance concerning website. It would not find unrealistic that these people would voluntarily provide financial assistance for Dede. The amount of money would not need to be much, everyone willing to contribute would be free too choose the amount.

Your opinions?

[xzeal]

everytime I've asked Ande something on mIRC, I've gotten a reply in 24 hours if I leave mIRC open and tell him to reply when he sees the message.

[dede]

Regarding the subject, I have two questions for all of you:

1. Could it be possible to just forget JGG and go for ts.com without them?
2. If yes, would you be willing to reward Dede?

1) Yes, it's possible, though we would need to pay for a domain and hosting, and switch to smth like turbosliders.net (unless Ande wants to redirect the turbosliders.com domain). Actually I'm not planning to spend any money for paying these services. And anyway, we would need to forward newbies to JGG to buy new licenses (unless turbosliders.net becomes distributor itself / the game is released as freeware). Another option would be going back to 0.86b version, maybe modified with new tiles and graphics, so that new tracks can work there. But that would mean losing all those new mods, and converting all servers as well. This would effectively kill the new turbosliders. I'm not planning of doing this either (it would need too much work, I guess..).


2) I don't agree with that, TS players already paid for the game. It would be enough if they will contribute administrating/moderating the website. What I wanted (as reward) was a percentage on all sales. They didn't agree on that, so I had to accept a different solution (somebody in the past said that we should've agreed before building the website, now I understood why ). What I'm complaining about isn't the reward (they decide that, I can't do anything), but it's the fact that it's taking two months completing the website because they take about 15 days-1 month answering to my e-mails. So, my question is: when the website will be published, will it take 15 days/1 month to get an answer from them? What happens if a huge problem occurs, will it take 15 days/1 month to get it solved? That quite disappoints me.

It would not find unrealistic that these people would voluntarily provide financial assistance for Dede. The amount of money would not need to be much, everyone willing to contribute would be free too choose the amount.

Forgetting things about me, we know that TS needs some money to "live": hosting for websites/master server/etc, reward for Ande/JGG, etc. Are we sure that a TS Freeware + donations + ads couldn't make it? Maybe now it's time to try!

[Creator]

As JGG has silently made it clear, they do not appear to have any interests whatsoever towards this game anymore.

Regarding the subject, I have two questions for all of you:

1. Could it be possible to just forget JGG and go for ts.com without them?
2. If yes, would you be willing to reward Dede?

Your opinions?

I offered to make a new Turbo Sliders website as part of our XIHA Life portal more than a year ago but the majority of TS users seemed to be against the idea so basically you long ago decided to "forget JGG and go for ts.com without them". Our business is centered around XIHA Life and since TS community was not interested in being part of it, TS is unfortunately not part of our focus.

My biggest mistake with TS was that I didn't build automated systems for PayPal and giro orders, nor replacing lost registration codes. Now the situation is that if I don't receive an email or if I don't have time to reply soon, people will have to wait. While it might sound an easy job to check emails 365 days a year and then boot up Windows in order to generate yet another registration code, I have recently become increasingly busy with other projects. From our point of view TS would have been better off being part of XIHA, but I can also see that the community wanted to take control in creating the site. But being what it is, we just provide hosting and will link to it to generate traffic.

The delays on TS.com are not because of us. There were some unreasonable requests on compensation that we simply were not able to agree on. It already is not making much money so having to pay a significant percentage of all sales to TS.com would make it very bad business for us.

I created the hosting account as soon as the domain was forwarded to our servers and other than that the site really is beyond my control.

As for financial support to Dede, just help TS.com become popular. He will earn more money per sale happening on TS.com than we do. Since TS.com is what people have been wanting, I am sure the game will sell well and with that he will be able to keep supporting the site.

When Dede says he wanted a percentage of all TS sales (meaning from all other sources than TS.com too) and that we didn't agree, that is not true. We agreed to give him a pretty reasonable share but he wanted more. Now he gets more (like I said he gets more than us) but quite simply we had to limit it to sales originating from TS.com.

Hopefully I will reply to him in less than 15 days in the future but quite simply I am also human. Write me a nice email and I will find it easier to find time to reply. It's obviously easier to complain about those few times I have been slow than to comment on those dozens of times that I replied instantly, but there's always a reason for everything.

[dede]

As for financial support to Dede, just help TS.com become popular. He will earn more money per sale happening on TS.com than we do. Since TS.com is what people have been wanting, I am sure the game will sell well and with that he will be able to keep supporting the site.

When Dede says he wanted a percentage of all TS sales (meaning from all other sources than TS.com too) and that we didn't agree, that is not true. We agreed to give him a pretty reasonable share but he wanted more. Now he gets more (like I said he gets more than us) but quite simply we had to limit it to sales originating from TS.com.

Yeah, with "They didn't agree on that" I meant "they didn't agree at my conditions". Then there were two options for me: 1) getting a low percentage on all sales or 2) getting a good percentage on all sales coming from ts.com.
Personally I prefer betting on my own work instead of somebody else's, so I chose the second one.

Anyway, I actually do not care about gaining 50€ instead of 40€. It's all about a reward for the work I did. Percentage on all sales would've meant that the website is effectively important for TS (it would put ts.com at the same level of TS, naturally with different importance). Percentage on sales coming from ts.com sounds more like "ok dede, if your project works -> you'll be so much busy administrating & you'll gain some money; if it doesn't (or if it partially does), you'll still be busy administrating but you won't get anything in charge".

About the complaining (slow answers), I didn't know that they were waiting for turbosliders.com to be moved (they didn't inform me). I hope that in the future we'll work better together, for the good of TS.

But now, what worries me is this: let's suppose that ts.com is effectively what people wanted. But what happens if no more versions of TS will be released? Like somebody pointed out, the game is effectively going to die (no support for Windows Vista & Mac Os).

Ande, we need you!

[Hengari]

I offered to make a new Turbo Sliders website as part of our XIHA Life portal more than a year ago but the majority of TS users seemed to be against the idea so basically you long ago decided to "forget JGG and go for ts.com without them". Our business is centered around XIHA Life and since TS community was not interested in being part of it, TS is unfortunately not part of our focus.

You surely undestand that XIHA and TS have totally different needs and it would have been pointless effort to continue on that road.

It's good that finally something is happening after over a year when Dede, me and some others thought about what ts.com could be like. [Not to be taken seriously]Then Dede stabbed us to the back and started building the site alone. Where was that community spirit?[end] Hopefully we get some more gears running on TS and Ande to make some updates. (It would be nice to see TS as open source but it has some problems.)

[offtopic]It was nice to see that XIHA is looking for some coders, graphic designers and all to make the portal better. Now it looks even more awful than JGG and I thought that it wasn't even possible [/offtopic]

[dede]

[Not to be taken seriously]Then Dede stabbed us to the back and started building the site alone. Where was that community spirit?[end]

Well yeah, I agree. It's just that I'm not used to build websites in a team (even in a website-making contest for "teams", I joined two times in a row with "fake" team mates, but I built three websites alone for it)..
Now that the website is "ready", you guys can start filling it with contents (of course, when it'll be published), and even program new sections/scripts/etc.

[Hengari]

Well yeah, I agree. It's just that I'm not used to build websites in a team (even in a website-making contest for "teams", I joined two times in a row with "fake" team mates, but I built three websites alone for it)..

Yeah I know, it's not easy to work as a team but it's possible.

Now that the website is "ready", you guys can start filling it with contents (of course, when it'll be published), and even program new sections/scripts/etc.

Yeah... now it's like the community does the work and gets the game some popularity and you get some money from the sold licences... Surely not big bucks but it's about the principle. Although, many of us have done big things for the game for free but now it kinda feels different. But, it's part of community driven games, somebody gets the profit and others do the dirty work, eh heh

I'm just thinking aloud and many of this forums readers will misinterpret my words. They have no understanding and especially no humour. It would certainly be a different thing if the game were huge and selling like hot butter. Now some pennies and everything to get the game flowing is good.

[dede]

But, it's part of community driven games, somebody gets the profit and others do the dirty work, eh heh

Crap that those "others" didn't build the website before. It would've been better for me, being a TS player "only".

[Hengari]

But, it's part of community driven games, somebody gets the profit and others do the dirty work, eh heh

Crap that those "others" didn't build the website before. It would've been better for me, being a TS player "only".

Yeah, others weren't so crazy to do the work which should have been ande's or jgg's job

You did great job (hopefully) and good that you get something from it.

[Creator]

Yeah, others weren't so crazy to do the work which should have been ande's or jgg's job

You did great job (hopefully) and good that you get something from it.

But why would it be our job? You very specifically said Jollygood Games website is horrible and XIHA Life is even more so. You can't possibly be asking for us to make a TS website, right?

It's not like making a new site would make us profit. It would cost us money (given that we need to pay salary to employees for doing it). And once finished, you would then tell me how horrible it is. Doing a lot of work for free, for you, would absolutely be pointless. I guess neither of these sites is aimed at you but both are quite popular and a lot of people like them. When I look at your own site and the new ts.com site, I can only wonder where your eyes are when you say comments like that.

People seem to think that when we offered TS a chance to be publicly available, paid for hosting and spent quite a bit of effort distributing it across the internet, we somehow wanted to hurt the players? TS is not - as you must know if you have been reading this forum - owned by us. We are not stopping anyone else selling it, publishing it, paying for servers, creating websites, etc. We are not in any way against you. Basically all the other publishers turned down TS and if it wasn't for us, probably you would not see versions beyond 0.92 ever even released.

[Creator]

You surely undestand that XIHA and TS have totally different needs and it would have been pointless effort to continue on that road.

Not necessarily, unless if you feel TS should be isolated from other "casual" games.

[offtopic]It was nice to see that XIHA is looking for some coders, graphic designers and all to make the portal better. Now it looks even more awful than JGG and I thought that it wasn't even possible [/offtopic]

Up yours...

[Hengari]

Huoh,

But why would it be our job?

So, the players should do all the work which is a big part of the community based game like TS is and help to sell the game with good site. I don't have any facts now but I think the game (community) sites are more or less done by the publisher or someone who makes the big bucks. (I understand that this time there aren't big bucks).

It's not like making a new site would make us profit. It would cost us money. And once finished, you would then tell me how horrible it is.

You really think that making it easy to get to know the game with excellent site with community content (easy to find in single site) wouldn't make you any more money? And of course I would tell you that the site sucks if it isn't what normal websites are. (Easy to use and look nice, which are not the case in JGG or XIHAlife.)

When I look at your own site and the new ts.com site, I can only wonder where your eyes are when you say comments like that.

Oh, thank god my eyes are still on my head. I thought I had lost them. No, really. Are you really comparing some full featured site with some webpages which are made for simple purposes. My sites are not full of features but they look nice and are more or less easy to use with some usable content.

I have seen ts.com and if it hasn't got lately some heavy bling bling and coated with gold, I sure can say that my sites are good as they are. For the purposes which they are created. (They would need some updating though)

People seem to think that when we offered TS a chance to be publicly available, paid for hosting and spent quite a bit of effort distributing it across the internet, we somehow wanted to hurt the players?

Who are saying that? You have done well and provided support for the community, which is nice.

Basically all the other publishers turned down TS and if it wasn't for us, probably you would not see versions beyond 0.92 ever even released.

Some players would still prefer the 0.86b but I like the new one better. It's great that you took TS and it got chance to be this awesome game what it is today.

[mikko]

Considering the previous discussions, I would remind that by introduction of ts.com (1) JGG and TS get increased visibility, which could have a positive effect on sales, (2) Dede gets a reward for his hard and pioneering work in a way that sounds right to me and (3) all other players get the long-waited community website with possibilities to affect its contents if they so want. Considering what is best for TS, everything else (maybe with exclusion of a better demo-mode and better Vista support) is secondary, including personal preferences of what is the best-looking website. So, why argue anymore? Everyone should be happy and TS should have a brighter future ahead than ever in the 1.0x era.

While highly unlikely, I wish Dede becomes rich thanks to TS.com, as it would mean that the sales go up to roof. It would be nothing away from me, nor from anyone else. On the contrary, it would mean a lot of new players, a lot more online racing activity and a more enjoyable gaming experience for everyone.

[dby]

I have never heard of XIHA Life before... checking it out now, it looks to me like some kind of community similar to myspace etc... with a section for selling games and rating them. That's nice for getting exposure and selling the game, but I fail to understand how it could work as a TS-community site? I think we need more functionality than that to make it worthwile to use.

I believe a community like ours is somewhat different from that of most "casual" games, as we organise cups, make new tracks, cars and different mods to expand the game. Players stick to TS for many years.

Or perhaps your average MahJong player does that as well? I wouldn't know, have never been much interested in that kind of gaming.

[Creator]

So, the players should do all the work which is a big part of the community based game like TS is and help to sell the game with good site. I don't have any facts now but I think the game (community) sites are more or less done by the publisher or someone who makes the big bucks. (I understand that this time there aren't big bucks).

Well the players still don't need to do all the work. There's still plenty we do. The big bucks games generaly have a plenty of user-created fan sites around them which are made for free by the users. Sometimes for the love for the game and sometimes to get a little money from ads or something. I don't see anything wrong with it.

You really think that making it easy to get to know the game with excellent site with community content (easy to find in single site) wouldn't make you any more money?

Yeah, perhaps it would make more sales but the question is if the sales were enough to pay for professionally developed site. Probably not.

And of course I would tell you that the site sucks if it isn't what normal websites are. (Easy to use and look nice, which are not the case in JGG or XIHAlife.)

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However I don't make "normal" websites. You're correct that the new TS website looks normal. But that's not what I'm creating. XIHA Life has its faults obviously, after all I've created it from scratch alone and it's not finished, but I think it's still pretty lame to say that it is the worst website in the world (which is basically what you said).

[Creator]

I have never heard of XIHA Life before... checking it out now, it looks to me like some kind of community similar to myspace etc... with a section for selling games and rating them. That's nice for getting exposure and selling the game, but I fail to understand how it could work as a TS-community site? I think we need more functionality than that to make it worthwile to use.

I believe a community like ours is somewhat different from that of most "casual" games, as we organise cups, make new tracks, cars and different mods to expand the game. Players stick to TS for many years.

Or perhaps your average MahJong player does that as well? I wouldn't know, have never been much interested in that kind of gaming.

XIHA Life is a framework which has everything a community site needs. You can have users which can be members of any group (in this case you could have a TS group). The users can create content. We can easily store stuff in database, store images, create feeds, etc. We have a very flexible forum which you can customize using CSS. On user and group pages practically all of the HTML is freely editable so you can do *any* type of design and layout you want. So you could easily implement a type of site TS.com currently is, plus a lot more. You would have the additional community features (such a point awards for free games, friend networks, etc) and you could choose which features to link to from the group page, if you wanted to avoid it being cluttered. Basically you'd have turbosliders.xihalife.com as a community group, which could easily be mapped to any url, and it could contain anything you wanted.

The best thing is that we're in full control of the source code and the development so it's very easy to add new features, especially if they're the kind of features that are useful to other groups too. But in any case the community voted and we didn't take that route, which is fine. But it just means I am not able to use my time of our resources on building the community site as we're pretty busy with xihalife.

[Etmil]

You could just help us a little, we're not asking much, are we?

[Creator]

You could just help us a little, we're not asking much, are we?

Not sure what you mean by that. We are helping. We have complied with every single request from the community to help building the site. It is not our main priority but comments like this make me a little puzzled. Is the general opinion really that we don't care about TS at all and are not willing to do anything for it?

[mikko]

Is the general opinion really that we don't care about TS at all and are not willing to do anything for it?

Etmil apparently did not carefully read all posts in this topic, but yes, this was at least my impression until yesterday. Now, after reading your posts I am very happy to see this is not the case.

By the way, one easily gets a wrong impression by reading the recent product news in http://www.jollygoodgames.com/turbosliders/

"December 2004, Playtrix.net organized a cool Turbo Sliders XMAX-Cup. Total of 1357 players participated in 4738 races! We would like to congratulate the winner"

It might help a bit to remove this "information" together with the links section where most of the links are dead.

[dede]

You could just help us a little, we're not asking much, are we?

Jollygood Games is actually helping TurboSliders. They are hosting TS websites for free and stuff like that.

Do you know what's wrong with TurboSliders? Jani said that: "..if you feel TS should be isolated from other "casual" games..". Now just check Jollygood Games website.. they are "casual" games, TS hasn't anything to do with them. Yeah, JGG reserved more space to TS (forum + fan sites, etc - I don't think they host any fan site for other games they sell), but the game is presented & sold as a "casual" game. Which isn't.
Another lack of TurboSliders is that it's based on 1 person only (Ande). JGG helped Ande selling the game and make some money, but Ande is still alone. Ande is the one who should make the centralized website, not JGG. But after all, we can't pretend anything from him. TS isn't his "job", it was just his hobby
Well, TS should be a freeware/open source game based on donation system (GPRO.se, MiniRacingOnline..). It just can't be a shareware because that would kill it (unless Ande allows other programmers help him with development, which would require sharing a percentage on sales with them as well, I suppose / or Ande comes back developing the game).
Now that TS.com is almost ready, TS might have more visibility, sales&activity on server will hopefully get better. But, as somebody pointed out, the game is going to have some difficulties if all those who have Vista can't play it.