TurboSliders vs NSGP: Pro´s & Contra´s

[Afinfas]

To spare the other thread with the offtopic!

Ok, this thread was opened to be able to speak about the differences between both games. Like positive things and negative things! Of course always compared with each other. Maybe one day we have some sort of collaboration and can make a fusion of some kind between both....who knows!

TS = TurboSliders
NSGP = NewstarGP

My point of view by random order:

• Skidmarks -> TS has them and it transmits a feeling of reality. Also it helps me a lot to learn with the mistakes cause i see clearly where i went out of track on previous lap!
• Chat --> TS has it much much better then NSGP. You can also change all parameters of race right there. Even though i find it a bit more hard to handle cause its not predefined menus like on NSGP for colisions ON or COM players,.... on TS you have to write commands!
• Spectator view --> Again TS has it and NSGP not! You also can join races to drive while they are still ON but you can join only as spectator as well and follow any drivers race of your choice
• Netcode --> Im not an expert on it but....it looks TS has it more smooth. On NSGP car always looks a bit blurry to me, like if its going to disappear soon. Also theres always loads of lag on NSGP and TS doesnt look like so much.
• Website --> NSGP has it much more simple and defined i think while on TS everything looks very disorganised and chaotic. Too much unclear info on the website! Its a mess of information. On NSGP, cortesy of Przemator! Everything packed on a clear website http://www.NSGP.tk
• Strategy --> NSGP has a clear advantage on this point. Having 3 kinds of tires and dynamic weather, Fuel, makes it unbelievably fun and unpredictable sometimes.
• Draft & Kers --> NSGP has it and TS not. Draft i think works pretty well on NSGP, KERS i cant say it really does cause it motivates cutting on turns. Also that you can repair a mistake done very easily.
• Damage --> I cant really say about this topic so well on TS but on NSGP doesnt work good at all!!!!
• NSGP costs 4€ Turbosliders costs 15€!!! (something to be reviewed!!?)
• NSGP has built in screenshot key, TS not. You haver to make printscreen + paint + paste + save....
• Synchronisation! TS has it, NSGP dont!
• Replay. Horrible system on TS where you cant advance laps and it only moves forward. Alos changing players its not done by order. Jumps from player to player but not in order of position

Just give your feedback and i will edit the first post with the new info!

[Mike Nike]

Netcode

by the way...in my replay from todays nsgp race it looked like you and 2nd place driver went into each other. was it just a bug or is there a x-seconds-overlap-allowed thingy going on, similar to the pitzone, where cars can drive over each other?

[Afinfas]

Netcode

by the way...in my replay from todays nsgp race it looked like you and 2nd place driver went into each other. was it just a bug or is there a x-seconds-overlap-allowed thingy going on, similar to the pitzone, where cars can drive over each other?

No man, i really think its the issues with the code/lag. What i see in my replay is not on most of the cases what the other drivers see. Thats why you have loads of Race Control appeals every week cause. I make a clean takeover on my screen but the other guy on his screen was taped to the grass, like it happened to you today! That sends quite some persons away from the online competition specially with DAMAGE on, how it is this season!

Actually, there´s something i wanted to ask you. You seem to know about coding and theres some things with NSGP and another game going on. Would you consider giving some help about it? Improving it? Dont want to enter in big details right now but...you know how to program in BlitzMax? Basic?

[Whiplash]

[*]Chat --> TS has it much much better then NSGP. You can also change all parameters of race right there. Even though i find it a bit more hard to handle cause its not predefined menus like on NSGP for colisions ON or COM players,.... on TS you have to write commands!

Hmm, actually TS have predefined menu for collisions and AI players. But game creator made it possible to change all things even without closing the server (that's why we use commands). That's actually a great thing, especially if you're an advanced user. So, for all simple things you can use game menu before you create the server. Commands helps you to be totally free while hosting a server. Otherwise, I couldn't even imagine how big screen we would need to have menu tabs instead of those commands. Realizing that, commands are actually nice and intuitive solution. You just need to remember those ones you use the most, or you can always type /help and /helpmore

[*]Website --> NSGP has it much more simple and defined i think while on TS everything looks very disorganised and chaotic. Too much unclear info on the website! Its a mess of information. On NSGP, cortesy of Przemator! Everything packed on a clear website http://www.NSGP.tk

I agree there with you. TS site is actually made by TS hard core players (mostly by dede and Tijny) who are mostly too busy (or lazy ) in few past years. dede coded some really cool and useful things there like track database, cup organizing tabs and many other stuff. If there were more hardcore players around who learnt how to use auto-servers, create scripts, organize all stuff, I'm pretty sure that this site would suits them pretty nicely. But the thing is that the site must be more opened to new players. They should be able to participate competitions easily without messing around too much with organization and forums, fallowing schedules, calendars etc. That's where TS site sucks.

[*]Strategy --> NSGP has a clear advantage on this point. Having 3 kinds of tires and dynamic weather, Fuel, makes it unbelievably fun and unpredictable sometimes.

It's hard to imagine with this game engine that TS could have dynamic weather ever. But I don't think that anyone of TS core players will ever cry because of that either. But sure, we miss tires even we found some solution to pretend that we already have them (we currently use damage option combined with other things to simulate the tires wearing).

[*]Draft & Kers --> NSGP has it and TS not. Draft i think works pretty well on NSGP, KERS i cant say it really does cause it motivates cutting on turns. Also that you can repair a mistake done very easily.

KERS sounds a little childish to me. But we discussed many times about drafting. That would be cool to have in TS and I'm sure it's possible.

[*]Damage --> I cant really say about this topic so well on TS but on NSGP doesnt work good at all!!!!
[/list]

It's pretty bad in TS too, especially if there is a lot of amateurs on the track. With some sliding cars it works ok. But that's probably problem of all racing games.

[Mike Nike]

you know how to program in BlitzMax? Basic?

my reaction to this was: ":D are you kidding me?" followed by a big smile of happiness like a little child when opening a christmas present and seeing it is exactly what it wished.

most of my pc games i wrote in blitzbasic and blitz3d (the 2d version by marc sibly i bought back then). unfortunately i didnt try out blitzmax yet, but from that what ive read it aint be a big problem to me, having some knowledge in object orientated languages.

a short vid of one of my racing games (stucked in work-in-progress since march 2004, when i found out about turbosliders):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsJpDyFM9r0

unfortunately i lost a lot after some data crashes.
some versions of projects i uploaded here lately:
http://mikenike.mi.funpic.de/mn2012/
but they are partly optimized for win xp and partly only for certain pc speeds.

anyway, if the game is opensource i can have a look over it and if you have special feature requests i can do some quick analyses to see how much time it would cost me to help out.
network coding isnt my strength though, since it often refers multiple people testing the code, sending vids and screenshots etc..

[Tijny]

Having tried NSGP just now, I have to say that I share most TS players' sentiments about the handling. I think I can say that I'm pretty adept at driving sliding cars in TS at least, but this is so completely different that I haven't yet discovered any logic behind when it slides, when it accelerates, etc. The GUI looks much more appealing than TS though, and the website is a lot cleaner as well, those are definitely pros for NSGP.

[dede]

I watched some videos on youtube about NSGP, and I remember that I tested this game more or less 1 year ago! I don't like too much the handling of the car as well, but what Tijny said is correct. I confirm we could organize something in the future

[Whiplash]

I confirm we could organize something in the future

That was good one.

[dede]

That was good one.

I feel there's a complaint behind this comment. Well, if it can bring more players to TS, then why not? Organizing a competition can be done without problems by me.

[Afinfas]

That was good one.

I feel there's a complaint behind this comment. Well, if it can bring more players to TS, then why not? Organizing a competition can be done without problems by me.

Yeah guys, thats my idea more or less. That we can "help" each other. Bringing ideas and concepts and players from both sides to make the topdown racing games more pleasant.
I have to be honest that at the moment im divided between both games. I love somethings in both but why isnt possible to have one that gathers the best from both?

I created this thread, even though looks apparently useless, with the idea in mind that pointing out the pro´s and contras from both games we can clearly see a pattern of what works and what doesnt, and thats already a big thing i guess!

Only this simple thing that Lema (one of the rookies that joined yesterday races coming from NSGP) said makes totally sense for me and looks so simple to make it.
Here:


Quote from Lema @ NSGP Forum

Downsides of TS if we compare with NSGP:
-they have no mac version
-Bars with fuel and damage are barely visible - this bothered me the most, i was trying to see where am i or how much fuel do i have, and who is behind me or in front. And when i have to press 3 times the same button on my keyboard to see that, i usually end up in grass. NSGP has that stuff much better solved. So in-game notifications could be better and letters and numbers could be bigger. Bottom left corner have some useful information like difference between me and other players, i like that very much, its a shame that numbers arent little bit bigger for better visibility. One more thing, in NSGP in upper right corner there is a bar with record lap and your fastest time and last lap time. I really miss that in TS.

Better than NSGP: -game is much more stable when playing online, i didnt experience any lag or F*** ghostpushes...

--------------------------

About the website thing...well, yeah NSGP has it more clean and visible but...in the end gameplay is what should count i guess!

[Whiplash]

That was good one.

I feel there's a complaint behind this comment. Well, if it can bring more players to TS, then why not? Organizing a competition can be done without problems by me.

Oh, I somehow understood your last sentence there totally wrong. T was mentioning the website in his last post and I thought you're post is reletad to his. He said:"...and the website is a lot cleaner as well, those are definitely pros for NSGP..." So, I thought you were talking about the better organized TS web site there too.
Cause you said "...but what Tijny said is correct. I confirm we could organize something in the future".
Pfff, I guess I just read what I'd like to read.

Btw, I would organize FTC cups every day. But T doesn't want to make me the teams script again.

[dede]

Building a new website is off my plans. It requires too much time and I don't have it. TS is just playing for me at the moment, so organizing a cup based on both games can be a good idea.

About creating a completely new game, first of all we need programmers who will take care of building all the stuff. I believe we can get the source code of TS if we need it, and author's advices (maybe some little help too?). But if we don't have them, then we can talk forever and still get nothing.

I was in contact with one of MRO programmers as well, we discussed about possibilities and features, but they never got interested at all.

[Afinfas]

Ok, first post updated with 2 more things, here:

• Nsgp costs 4€ Turbosliders costs 15€!!! (does this price makes sense at all guys?? There are guys on NSGP willing to buy it but the price makes it unmotivating for sure. Specially if you dont gain anything compared with the free version! I bought it in the time it wasnt free but now doesnt make sense except to help developers. But if so, should be free to give whatever amount you things you can...
• NSGP has built in screenshot key, TS not. You haver to make printscreen + paint + paste + save....
• Sychronisation on TS but not on NSGP

[Wokinger]

Turbosliders costs 15€!!!

It's free.

[Afinfas]

Turbosliders costs 15€!!!

It's free.

Yeah i know its free but if you want to have a license you pay the 15€ am i right? Its great its free ofcourse...im just mentioning if you want to have a full licence.

[Tijny]

Turbosliders costs 15€!!!

It's free.

Yeah i know its free but if you want to have a license you pay the 15€ am i right? Its great its free ofcourse...im just mentioning if you want to have a full licence.

If you want to have a license, you're out of luck because the guy in charge of giving out licenses has stopped doing that years ago. I'm not sure why it still says anything about buying licenses on the website, because it won't work even if you try.

[Afinfas]

It's free.

Yeah i know its free but if you want to have a license you pay the 15€ am i right? Its great its free ofcourse...im just mentioning if you want to have a full licence.

If you want to have a license, you're out of luck because the guy in charge of giving out licenses has stopped doing that years ago. I'm not sure why it still says anything about buying licenses on the website, because it won't work even if you try.

LOL thats odd but...no its not for me. I bought the game some years ago, so i have a license. Its for another NSGP player that might come to today´s races. He likes as well to support good games!
Probably we will have 3 or 4 guys from NSGP trying the luck on Pro/rookie race!

[dede]

If you want to have a license, you're out of luck because the guy in charge of giving out licenses has stopped doing that years ago. I'm not sure why it still says anything about buying licenses on the website, because it won't work even if you try.

If you purchase through eSellerate it should be automatic.

[Whiplash]

I believe we can get the source code of TS if we need it, and author's advices (maybe some little help too?).

Talking now about it I can say that I'm not an programmer, but I can be sure that TS doesn't need more than few Ande's days to push this game very close to perfection. He knows all about it, and I'm sure that he's more skilled now as a programmer than before. We should just "force" him somehow to do those few more features. That's much better solution than have a new programmers. I suggest to make a topic on forum and then let's just molest him by mails.

NSGP has built in screenshot key, TS not. You haver to make printscreen + paint + paste + save...

That's not that important thing. Developer didn't consider there will be some losers who don't know how to use their keyboards.

Sychronisation on TS but not on NSGP

What do you mean by this?

[Afinfas]

I believe we can get the source code of TS if we need it, and author's advices (maybe some little help too?).

Talking now about it I can say that I'm not an programmer, but I can be sure that TS doesn't need more than few Ande's days to push this game very close to perfection. He knows all about it, and I'm sure that he's more skilled now as a programmer than before. We should just "force" him somehow to do those few more features. That's much better solution than have a new programmers. I suggest to make a topic on forum and then let's just molest him by mails.

NSGP has built in screenshot key, TS not. You haver to make printscreen + paint + paste + save...

That's not that important thing. Developer didn't consider there will be some losers who don't know how to use their keyboards.

Sychronisation on TS but not on NSGP

What do you mean by this?

To be honest im quotting Mike Nike´s words. He can explain better what this sentence means. But basically, for what i understood is, on NSGP there are collision that dont exists on others screens and cause of that a lot of frustration! On TS looks is everything more smooth, thats why its easier to know when you have to let it go on a turn when you are on the outside for example. Kind of hard to explain, lets wait for Mike Nike´s post, he can explain it good!

About the Open Source thing...oh yeah! Im up to it...im sure with the contribute from regular Topdown 2D racing game players´s this game could become very very cool! Was more or less with this possibility in mind that this thread was created...to gather ideas for a possible future update. Different kind of tires would be a must....also dynamic weather! Anyway, see you soon at the races....

TS for OPEN SOURCE!!!!!

[Mike Nike]

well..i didnt actually say synchro ts on, ngsp off...

the thing is..in ngsp you can drive a race and in your screen, even collisions are on, some cars can go into each other and overlap, without actually touching in the screen of some other driver.
for example..in my race i was 0,5 carlength ahead of someone or so and got a push from the side and gone offroad. in his screen he actually did not touch me, being around 0,5 carlength in front of me...but it was visible i got a magical push.
so..imagine there is a full carlength, maybe sometimes even more, between the actual collision handling from the server and the drawn data of your car.
some have to drive, knowing your car is actually 1 car length behind and moreover..it seems it doesnt just stop there.
its not like you are 1 car length in front of everybody.
instead, some might have the same synchro, some are 0.x carlength behind you, some in front.
it sucks so much (to me), i basicly said "NO" to every upcoming "collision-on events" for ngsp.
some pros even are somewhat able to calculate those synchro differences and avoid crashes.
in ts you still can predict a bit vs others with 100ms serverdiff while having 300ms (they just have somewhat easygoing, avoiding your beefing in rough races).
in ngsp its gonna be a lot harder it seems to me.

[Tijny]

[...]

So basically, the issue is that NSGP simply doesn't have any kind of client prediction?

[Afinfas]

[...]

So basically, the issue is that NSGP simply doesn't have any kind of client prediction?

Quote from Przemator as he has no account but hes the most qualified guy to answer these technical questions about how NSGP behaves/works!:

"You are right, NSGP has no client prediction, NSGP shows on screen the car positions in the moment it receives the data via network. So, if it takes 100 ms, you see the car position with 100 ms delay. This means that interaction with a car that isnt already there on the other end is one-sided: you experience the collision, but the other player only sees you behind him battling with a ghost."

And now i ask. How the hell is possible to solve this??? Any ideas or suggestions?? They are welcome!

[Mike Nike]

it sounds so easy to me, that im afraid you mean something else.
anyway, one solution is: taking the last "hold down keys" and simulating a carposition update function x times.
if normally carposition is updated via formula 50 times a sec or so and the prediction is gonna be 100ms, then we update car position 5 times in order to get the prediction position of the car (without collision detections).

with collision detections it gets a bit complicated with a lot of cars close to each other, having all different serverdiff etc..

anyway, just had a nice idea for static tracks (but...with moving trackpart objects there might be more procedures to consider):
logging car positions from earlier laps in order to make steering predictions..in order to make even better future predictions of carpositions.

that way i maybe wouldnt have seen lanz driving into pits last race in lap +-8 (which kinda caused me into getting a bit psyched there lol, ending up in a crash)

and maybe pablinho might see us europeans driving smoother through curves then. im afraid it would crush down the framerate of the game though.

[Whiplash]

Seems Ande rox. It's fascinating how clean game he made. I know, it's simple game, but it's still amazing how many bugs he avoided.